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Messages
470
Location
Missouri
That tornado looks like the Wayne County, TN F4-F5 tornado from 1998.
Is that the "Forgotten F5"? If so, then it does:

Forgotten F5.jpg

Write up the outbreak that spawned it: https://www.weather.gov/ohx/19980416

Turns out the F5 was actually part of a family of 3 closely-spaced tornadoes, the other two being F4 in strength, and the 3 fatalities initially attributed to it were actually the fault of the F4 tornadoes. If you scroll down you can see some damage pics from it, they definitely look intense but unfortunately the worst of the damage is yet again not available. Really frustrating how hard it can be to get photographs of the worst damage of violent tornadoes sometimes. Unfortunately, due to the remote rural location this thing occurred in we may just have to deal with a lack of photos for some time to come.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
617
Location
Riverside, Ohio
Today I attended a Chinese tornado investigation conference held by professors from Beijing University Atmospheric and Oceanic Science institution.They've mentioned three EF4 occurred on 8/11/2017 in Chifeng city,Inner Mongolia,China.Unfortunately,only one of the three EF4s had great documentation and the other two occurred in rural areas so little information I can get,I talked to one professor who were in the damage survey team at that time and she told me they were still collecting damage photos and trying to write research papers about these three EF4s.So here's what I've got and what I can find from that event.
The first one,which was an at least a mile-wide wedge,touched town in a shallow valley,It only last 10 mintues and covered a damage path only 2 miles,which means this tornado was rather slow moving.The tornado first moved slowly to the north,stayed stagnant for a while,and then recurved to the northeast,disappered on a mountain.A town,abbreviated "QJC",was on the edge of the tornado's path.Two concrete-red brick mixed FR12 was completely demolished,only left a pile of debris on its basement.Bricks and concrete fragments were thrown long distances.
track map.The red line area indicates EF4 damage.
View attachment 4102
house leveled
View attachment 4103 View attachment 4104
The second one,which also touched down in a river valley,has the least information.I have no idea when the tornado touched down,how long it lasted,how far it went,but one thing for sure,this one was also at least a mile-wide in his full life span,maybe even bigger than the first one.A town,abbreviated "SLP" was on the left edge of the tornado.I've heard this one also leveled numerous houses but I can't make sure whether some damage photos were belonged to this one so here's only the track map.
View attachment 4105
As the second EF4 missing the town.The third EF4 formed to the east of the second one in the same river valley,the two EF4s were on the ground simultaneously for about 3-5 mintues,like the pilger twins event.The second one quickly curved to the north and disspates while the third one heading directy to the east and then climbed a mountain, growing in size and strength,the third one then directly went through the town abbreviated "WTS",here was the most severe damage occurred,entire rows of brick-concrete-mixed one or two story big houses were completeley swept away,some only left clean foundation,debris was scattered downwind for long distances,reinforced concrete poles are broken off at ground level,hardwood trees nearby only left debarked trunks and no leaves or branches remaining,small branches deeply embedded into concrete walls,tractors were mangled and thrown several hundred yards away,a water tank weighing between 3-5 tons were thrown four miles away according to local residents.Ground scouring was obvious as the tornado left the town and went downhill.Again the tornado "dived"into another valley and again climbed another mountain,slightly shrinking in width and strength,tornado encountered another town,abbreviated "SZZ".EF4 damage took place again where numerous well-anchored brick homes were completely swept away left only piles of rubbles,the tornado then climbed to the peak of the mountain and quickly disspated. In all,five people were killed,58 were injured.
track map.
View attachment 4108
damage at WTS town.
View attachment 4109
View attachment 4111
View attachment 4112
damage near SZZ town
View attachment 4113
Forgive for the photo quality,cuz I screenshot from the conference and resolution may lose a bit.If anyone needs more damage photos,I'll add some.
WOW! this is incredible. I had no idea that China experienced so many violent tornadoes in recent years. I’m beginning to think that significant tornadoes occur there much more frequently than previously thought, but aren’t consistently reported and documented.
 

eric11

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46
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Shanghai,China
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WOW! this is incredible. I had no idea that China experienced so many violent tornadoes in recent years. I’m beginning to think that significant tornadoes occur there much more frequently than previously thought, but aren’t consistently reported and documented.
Yes,5 EF4s are given from 2016-2019.China shares the same downward trend like Great Plains but an upward trend in strong to violent tornadoes in 2010s.
 

zvl5316

Member
Messages
7
Location
State College, PA
Yes,5 EF4s are given from 2016-2019.China shares the same downward trend like Great Plains but an upward trend in strong to violent tornadoes in 2010s.
Some of my personal view is, lots of significant/violent tornadoes in China before 2010 was neglected due to frivolous surveys and lack of tornado documentation systems. In fact , it looks like meteorological apartments in China failed to pay enough attentions to tornadoes until several serious cases in 2015-2016.
 

YT_candidate

Member
Messages
5
Location
Texas
Where did you here about the surveys being accidentally discarded? I heard it from a frequent YouTube commenter and storm chasing enthusiast 5-6 years ago.
Think I may have been that youtube commenter in question! What a coincidence...I saw the video of the Dalton tornado, was reminded of Wilkin County, remarked on the similarities between the 4 of the drill bits mentioned in the last couple of pages, did a quick google search on Pampa 1995 to see if any information had been recovered since I last looked up the subject. One thing lead to another and I found both the tornadotalk article and this thread, with all the information compiled recently!

I believe I got my original information about the data loss from my correspondence in 2013 with Jose Garcia at NWS Amarillo. I am sad to say that in an ironic twist (no pun intended) of fate, I've failed to keep up with the topic in the last several years, and have actually lost that conversation along with a lot of my meteorological knowledge. Any new data about the event is still sure to turn a head, though - and I am sure I am not the only one. Pampa's legendary status combined with the lack of readily available information online lends to a bit of mystique, I think.

A little bit to add on to the various events that have been discussed. Back in the day I talked a bit with Max from extremeplanet.me about the Pampa storm, he mentioned that he had a limited edition addendum at the end of one of his books where Grazulis noted that his personal photogrammetry indicated wind speeds of approximately 300 mph 100 ft AGL. That combined with its spectacular rotation, numerous feats of strength, and extreme vehicle damage leads me to the belief that Pampa was perhaps the strongest of the four drill bits. Grazulis himself did say he thought it had the highest wind speeds of any tornado he'd seen at the time of the writing; Garcia noted that had it occurred in modern times, with the updated EF scale, it would have almost certainly attained an EF5 rating. The main difficulty in actually confirming all that is the lack of photos displaying affected vegetation which, I think, would arguably be more useful than an example of what would have happened if the tornado actually struck a well built residential structure at full strength. Buildings can only take so much before they blow away, after all...tree trunks and ground scouring leave a bit more evidence to be evaluated. We do have this video shot, for what it's worth:


Very low resolution, but many of these trees look to be severely stripped and snapped off low to the ground. A pity we don't have a close up shot with higher color quality, then we'd be able to gauge the level of debarking.

It would not surprise me if Dalton were itself a bit underrated. As I recall, the building that was destroyed was struck while the circulation was still in the process of transitioning from its organizing to its mature stage. (Also of note, that process looked quite similar to Pampa's own.) The most violent rotation, similar to Elie, seems to occur somewhere around the shrinking stage. And to point out a further commonality with its compatriots, the twister lasted for exactly the same number of minutes (31) as Wilkin!

Wilkin used to have a NWS page detailing its damage and the rationale for its rating. Sadly, like much of the information about Pampa, it seems that page is now gone. I recall that it may have said that trees at the surveyed damage sites were stripped but not debarked...memory's a bit fuzzy on that. Given some of the photos of more severe tree damage posted in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if they missed a few areas, I definitely see at least one debarked trunk here. The ground scouring was certainly quite impressive, the NWS page had a ground level shot showing beets torn out of the earth in a concentrated swath and of course we've got that awesome aerial footage to go on.

Agreed with eric that Elie earned its higher rating more due to chance and circumstance than strength. I think though that it actually didn't travel over the same place twice - didn't retrace its footsteps, so to speak. extremeplanet.me had an analysis of the event (also now sadly disappeared, I'm sensing a trend here) and the tornado's path. My thoughts on the matter are that drill bit tornadoes probably do tend to be a bit underrated in general, their extremely narrow width means they need to hit an object pretty much dead on. Couple that with their usually occurring up north over plains and they don't have the opportunity to leave as many indicators of their intensity. Elie however by pure (bad) luck managed to strike pretty much every house in the immediate area, thus leaving no doubt. If it turned out that it was actually the weakest of the 4, frankly I'm not sure I would be surprised.

But it's all academic anyhow, the weather nerd equivalent of arguing over sports teams if you will. Have to say I haven't had an opportunity to do that in a long time though! I do wonder if in the future, as our knowledge of the subject grows, we'll start increasingly parsing out the common characteristics of the different forms of tornadoes. Terminology like drill bit, dust bowl, wedge, etc. could become a bit more formalized, much like the different breeds of supercells are now (HP, classic, LP).
 
Messages
470
Location
Missouri
Think I may have been that youtube commenter in question! What a coincidence...I saw the video of the Dalton tornado, was reminded of Wilkin County, remarked on the similarities between the 4 of the drill bits mentioned in the last couple of pages, did a quick google search on Pampa 1995 to see if any information had been recovered since I last looked up the subject. One thing lead to another and I found both the tornadotalk article and this thread, with all the information compiled recently!

I believe I got my original information about the data loss from my correspondence in 2013 with Jose Garcia at NWS Amarillo. I am sad to say that in an ironic twist (no pun intended) of fate, I've failed to keep up with the topic in the last several years, and have actually lost that conversation along with a lot of my meteorological knowledge. Any new data about the event is still sure to turn a head, though - and I am sure I am not the only one. Pampa's legendary status combined with the lack of readily available information online lends to a bit of mystique, I think.

A little bit to add on to the various events that have been discussed. Back in the day I talked a bit with Max from extremeplanet.me about the Pampa storm, he mentioned that he had a limited edition addendum at the end of one of his books where Grazulis noted that his personal photogrammetry indicated wind speeds of approximately 300 mph 100 ft AGL. That combined with its spectacular rotation, numerous feats of strength, and extreme vehicle damage leads me to the belief that Pampa was perhaps the strongest of the four drill bits. Grazulis himself did say he thought it had the highest wind speeds of any tornado he'd seen at the time of the writing; Garcia noted that had it occurred in modern times, with the updated EF scale, it would have almost certainly attained an EF5 rating. The main difficulty in actually confirming all that is the lack of photos displaying affected vegetation which, I think, would arguably be more useful than an example of what would have happened if the tornado actually struck a well built residential structure at full strength. Buildings can only take so much before they blow away, after all...tree trunks and ground scouring leave a bit more evidence to be evaluated. We do have this video shot, for what it's worth:


Very low resolution, but many of these trees look to be severely stripped and snapped off low to the ground. A pity we don't have a close up shot with higher color quality, then we'd be able to gauge the level of debarking.

It would not surprise me if Dalton were itself a bit underrated. As I recall, the building that was destroyed was struck while the circulation was still in the process of transitioning from its organizing to its mature stage. (Also of note, that process looked quite similar to Pampa's own.) The most violent rotation, similar to Elie, seems to occur somewhere around the shrinking stage. And to point out a further commonality with its compatriots, the twister lasted for exactly the same number of minutes (31) as Wilkin!

Wilkin used to have a NWS page detailing its damage and the rationale for its rating. Sadly, like much of the information about Pampa, it seems that page is now gone. I recall that it may have said that trees at the surveyed damage sites were stripped but not debarked...memory's a bit fuzzy on that. Given some of the photos of more severe tree damage posted in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if they missed a few areas, I definitely see at least one debarked trunk here. The ground scouring was certainly quite impressive, the NWS page had a ground level shot showing beets torn out of the earth in a concentrated swath and of course we've got that awesome aerial footage to go on.

Agreed with eric that Elie earned its higher rating more due to chance and circumstance than strength. I think though that it actually didn't travel over the same place twice - didn't retrace its footsteps, so to speak. extremeplanet.me had an analysis of the event (also now sadly disappeared, I'm sensing a trend here) and the tornado's path. My thoughts on the matter are that drill bit tornadoes probably do tend to be a bit underrated in general, their extremely narrow width means they need to hit an object pretty much dead on. Couple that with their usually occurring up north over plains and they don't have the opportunity to leave as many indicators of their intensity. Elie however by pure (bad) luck managed to strike pretty much every house in the immediate area, thus leaving no doubt. If it turned out that it was actually the weakest of the 4, frankly I'm not sure I would be surprised.

But it's all academic anyhow, the weather nerd equivalent of arguing over sports teams if you will. Have to say I haven't had an opportunity to do that in a long time though! I do wonder if in the future, as our knowledge of the subject grows, we'll start increasingly parsing out the common characteristics of the different forms of tornadoes. Terminology like drill bit, dust bowl, wedge, etc. could become a bit more formalized, much like the different breeds of supercells are now (HP, classic, LP).
If you were 510_Anonymous or something like that, yeah I did talk to you; We had some YT conversations back in 2014-15 and I remember you showed a link to a documentary about tornadoes in 1995 that showed how in slow motion how Pampa broke open oil tank, lifted a warehouse through the air and that steel cables could be seen suspended in its circulation; wish I remember the name of that documentary. Anyways, I have a different YT account now, but yeah shame extremeplanet went down, but you can still access it via the Wayback Machine.
 

YT_candidate

Member
Messages
5
Location
Texas
Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
 
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470
Location
Missouri
Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
So, my old account I've deleted and since gotten a new one. Have you read about Chuck Doswell's account of the evolution and formation of the Pampa storm? It basically went from starting off as a multivortex wedge of a single vortex drillbit; It's really fascinating: http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/atornado/atornado.html Scroll down to the bolded entry that says 'Tornado cyclones'. but yeah you conversed with my old YT account; Rellek, I've since deleted that one and use a more professional one. But anyways the 1995 Panhandle Outbreak is something I wish more information was available on, shame about the damage survey results being discarded.
 
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346
Location
Lenexa, KS
So, my old account I've deleted and since gotten a new one. Have you read about Chuck Doswell's account of the evolution and formation of the Pampa storm? It basically went from starting off as a multivortex wedge of a single vortex drillbit; It's really fascinating: http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/atornado/atornado.html Scroll down to the bolded entry that says 'Tornado cyclones'. but yeah you conversed with my old YT account; Rellek, I've since deleted that one and use a more professional one. But anyways the 1995 Panhandle Outbreak is something I wish more information was available on, shame about the damage survey results being discarded.
With so little information on the Sherman, Texas tornado from 1896 it makes me wonder how it would compare with other drillbit tornadoes. The damage was extraordinary according to Grazulis. It may be amongst the most violent tornadoes ever recorded.
 
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470
Location
Missouri
With so little information on the Sherman, Texas tornado from 1896 it makes me wonder how it would compare with other drillbit tornadoes. The damage was extraordinary according to Grazulis. It may be amongst the most violent tornadoes ever recorded.
What's interesting is that it started out being about a quarter mile wide, a typical wedge and narrowed to 60 yards in width after it curved to the left and went through Sherman at the very end of its path; similar to Elie in that it didn't achieve F5 intensity until being close to dissipation and when it was in the 'roping out' phase.
 

eric11

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Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
I forgot the values of CAPE or wind shear that day in Texas Panhandle,but atomsphere state that day was really suitable for regional tornado outbreak even violent tornado outbreak with great instability and low level shear.According to some resources,pampa hadn't reached to the ground until a new wall cloud formed to its east.As pampa was strengthing and tearing through local industrial park,a new funnel beneath that wall cloud took shape which eventually became the hoover tornado.Pampa and Hoover "coexisted"about six mintues and then pampa slowed down,circled around hoover and dissipated according to Chuck Doswell.
 

eric11

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Have you guys ever noticed a phenomenon that some tornadoes do the strongest damage while another mesocyclone/tornado is trying to form in the same supercell.Pampa narrowed,did its strongest damage while hoover tornado was trying to form,Hesston narrowed,restrengthened and slammed into the town while gossel was trying to form,Pilger narrowed,completely swept away a house which was later rated 189mph in the end of its path just the moment wakefield was about to touch down.Though I cannot be 100% for sure all tornadoes will restrengthen as new meso forms(elmer,el reno,chapman weakened significantly as new meso trying to form ahead of them),the situation can be linked to those non—new meso—affected tornadoes when they shrink in size or near the end of their lifecycle like sherman pampa or elie.Has anyone ever explained this two phenomena or linked them together?I don't know how to explain them but from farfetched opinion,they all be influenced some type of external forces like new meso/tornado forming, own meso dying, downburst or outflow pushing,RFD or updraft shrinking,etc,which would lead to the core of the tornado tight up violently,stretch the vorticity with tinier core and smaller RMW like a hurricane moves into some cold,dry atomsphere state and tighten its eyewall,thus cause the funnel to rotate more violently.
 
Messages
470
Location
Missouri
Have you guys ever noticed a phenomenon that some tornadoes do the strongest damage while another mesocyclone/tornado is trying to form in the same supercell.Pampa narrowed,did its strongest damage while hoover tornado was trying to form,Hesston narrowed,restrengthened and slammed into the town while gossel was trying to form,Pilger narrowed,completely swept away a house which was later rated 189mph in the end of its path just the moment wakefield was about to touch down.Though I cannot be 100% for sure all tornadoes will restrengthen as new meso forms(elmer,el reno,chapman weakened significantly as new meso trying to form ahead of them),the situation can be linked to those non—new meso—affected tornadoes when they shrink in size or near the end of their lifecycle like sherman pampa or elie.Has anyone ever explained this two phenomena or linked them together?I don't know how to explain them but from farfetched opinion,they all be influenced some type of external forces like new meso/tornado forming, own meso dying, downburst or outflow pushing,RFD or updraft shrinking,etc,which would lead to the core of the tornado tight up violently,stretch the vorticity with tinier core and smaller RMW like a hurricane moves into some cold,dry atomsphere state and tighten its eyewall,thus cause the funnel to rotate more violently.
Lots of tornadoes tend to do extreme damage in their "roping out" stage as the narrowing of the funnel increases the constriction on the winds and can accelerate them temporarily but your new mesocyclone/tornado forming nearby hypothesis is definitely interesting, but unfortunately I'm not a meteorologist so I can't really comment on it much more.
 

eric11

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Lots of tornadoes tend to do extreme damage in their "roping out" stage as the narrowing of the funnel increases the constriction on the winds and can accelerate them temporarily but your new mesocyclone/tornado forming nearby hypothesis is definitely interesting, but unfortunately I'm not a meteorologist so I can't really comment on it much more.
Even meteorologists can't give an proper explanation I guess,there are too many mysteries in tornado and I just list one of them.And some new examples pop from my head like the Dodge city tornado family also perfectly fits the law.
 
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470
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Missouri
Even meteorologists can't give an proper explanation I guess,there are too many mysteries in tornado and I just list one of them.And some new examples pop from my head like the Dodge city tornado family also perfectly fits the law.
Well it's like in that Chuck Doswell paper, it's all part of a spectrum of convective vortices in the atmosphere; physical processes just happen and we attempt to label them arbitrarily in an attempt to understand them.
 
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YT_candidate

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Texas
I'd seen the photos of the "splitting" phenomenon from Chuck Doswell's 1995 chase logs (archived here) but hadn't read further into the discussion of it. But yes, that's another thing that makes Pampa a little different.

In this case though, the formation of Hoover actually seemed to negatively affect the intensity of the Pampa tornado in dramatic fashion - from Doswell's notes, the Pampa circulation appeared to be at its maximum strength at the peak of its mature stage (approx 7:00 in the Stubblefield's video) and then almost immediately shrank and lifted in the span of 1-2 minutes as the Hoover funnel cloud began to form. I can only assume that the storm chaser who'd said they coexisted for 6 minutes had misremembered things since their photos show Hoover didn't touch down until Pampa had largely dissipated. This process occurred as Pampa crossed Price Rd and started to track into the residential areas where the damage was much less intense. In this case I think we might've seen much more of Pampa - including possibly a photogenic rope stage as seen with Elie, Wilkin, and Dalton - had it not been for the Hoover system.

On another note, there's also some aerial footage taken of the Dalton track:


The ground scouring definitely looks more moderate than Wilkin which had pretty much dug a massive scar into the Earth, still more than Elie of course.

Speaking of Elie, I should correct my mistake - upon review the track it appears the tornado actually did cross over a part of its previous path, although this intersection hadn't occurred in the neighborhood. The slow speed almost certainly did contribute to the damage though, I would suspect the dense areas of near-total debarking probably had something to do with the debris shredding mentioned.
 
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eric11

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The saying"they coexisted for six minutes"can be found in this post http://www.okweatherwatch.com/StormObservation/texas-panhandle-tornadoes-june-8-1995/
Since he witnessed the entire life cycle of pampa and hoover,so his word may be dependable.There was no video documented how pampa died or hoover formed(One video I remember captured hoover touched town,missed a farm from rather close range).So maybe pampa lifted and then reached back to ground again briefly like the DDC2,who knows.
-351d3887ba76e1dfdf2a3fcb54140fa3.jpg 2e3570a9b788765e14fa130d4e856e4a.jpg
Wilkin did one of the most intense ground scouring mark in Northern Plains as far as I can remember.I agree your opinion on Dalton's ground scar was moderate than Wilkin,but it still looks impressive
72d90691db1c1fd1.jpg 5270c7288f62ec6e.jpg
Dalton's car damage is another one that has to be mentioned,various type of cars thrown,mangled beyond recognition,including some really big semitrailer which weighs several tons I guess.Only one drillbit tornado can match this level of car damage,pampa.
-165e6a8e15d6864b.jpg
-37f0733eb244c2f8.jpg 5bb06a5652c2f44d.jpg 3a537ae9ac2921b3.jpg -43113f457ba966a5.jpg
 
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buckeye05

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Riverside, Ohio
Does anyone have any of the damage photos from Wilkin/Tyler 2010 that show chunks of concrete ripped from the foundation of a barn that was obliterated? I remember it distinctly, but can no longer find them. They were scattered into a heavily scoured field, and it was very impressive. Probably the most impressive instance of damage from that tornado. This shows evidence of remarkably intense low-level winds.
 

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