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YT_candidate

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Texas
Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
 
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554
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Missouri
Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
So, my old account I've deleted and since gotten a new one. Have you read about Chuck Doswell's account of the evolution and formation of the Pampa storm? It basically went from starting off as a multivortex wedge of a single vortex drillbit; It's really fascinating: http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/atornado/atornado.html Scroll down to the bolded entry that says 'Tornado cyclones'. but yeah you conversed with my old YT account; Rellek, I've since deleted that one and use a more professional one. But anyways the 1995 Panhandle Outbreak is something I wish more information was available on, shame about the damage survey results being discarded.
 
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So, my old account I've deleted and since gotten a new one. Have you read about Chuck Doswell's account of the evolution and formation of the Pampa storm? It basically went from starting off as a multivortex wedge of a single vortex drillbit; It's really fascinating: http://www.flame.org/~cdoswell/atornado/atornado.html Scroll down to the bolded entry that says 'Tornado cyclones'. but yeah you conversed with my old YT account; Rellek, I've since deleted that one and use a more professional one. But anyways the 1995 Panhandle Outbreak is something I wish more information was available on, shame about the damage survey results being discarded.
With so little information on the Sherman, Texas tornado from 1896 it makes me wonder how it would compare with other drillbit tornadoes. The damage was extraordinary according to Grazulis. It may be amongst the most violent tornadoes ever recorded.
 
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554
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Missouri
With so little information on the Sherman, Texas tornado from 1896 it makes me wonder how it would compare with other drillbit tornadoes. The damage was extraordinary according to Grazulis. It may be amongst the most violent tornadoes ever recorded.
What's interesting is that it started out being about a quarter mile wide, a typical wedge and narrowed to 60 yards in width after it curved to the left and went through Sherman at the very end of its path; similar to Elie in that it didn't achieve F5 intensity until being close to dissipation and when it was in the 'roping out' phase.
 

eric11

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Yup, that was me! I think that video was from Tornado Video Classics. It's validating to see that there are so many people interested in Pampa 1995, ha. I wonder if the Tornado Talk page was created by someone I talked to back in the day, they definitely seem to have put a lot of effort into their research.

Interesting that the Pampa event does seem to differ a little from the others. As I recall this was not necessarily a low precipitation environment and the storm definitely was capable of producing larger tornadoes, it also completely lacked a rope stage and didn't live particularly long. Of course the latter part probably has a lot to do with the formation of that exact larger tornado occurring right next to it.
I forgot the values of CAPE or wind shear that day in Texas Panhandle,but atomsphere state that day was really suitable for regional tornado outbreak even violent tornado outbreak with great instability and low level shear.According to some resources,pampa hadn't reached to the ground until a new wall cloud formed to its east.As pampa was strengthing and tearing through local industrial park,a new funnel beneath that wall cloud took shape which eventually became the hoover tornado.Pampa and Hoover "coexisted"about six mintues and then pampa slowed down,circled around hoover and dissipated according to Chuck Doswell.
 

eric11

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Have you guys ever noticed a phenomenon that some tornadoes do the strongest damage while another mesocyclone/tornado is trying to form in the same supercell.Pampa narrowed,did its strongest damage while hoover tornado was trying to form,Hesston narrowed,restrengthened and slammed into the town while gossel was trying to form,Pilger narrowed,completely swept away a house which was later rated 189mph in the end of its path just the moment wakefield was about to touch down.Though I cannot be 100% for sure all tornadoes will restrengthen as new meso forms(elmer,el reno,chapman weakened significantly as new meso trying to form ahead of them),the situation can be linked to those non—new meso—affected tornadoes when they shrink in size or near the end of their lifecycle like sherman pampa or elie.Has anyone ever explained this two phenomena or linked them together?I don't know how to explain them but from farfetched opinion,they all be influenced some type of external forces like new meso/tornado forming, own meso dying, downburst or outflow pushing,RFD or updraft shrinking,etc,which would lead to the core of the tornado tight up violently,stretch the vorticity with tinier core and smaller RMW like a hurricane moves into some cold,dry atomsphere state and tighten its eyewall,thus cause the funnel to rotate more violently.
 
Messages
554
Location
Missouri
Have you guys ever noticed a phenomenon that some tornadoes do the strongest damage while another mesocyclone/tornado is trying to form in the same supercell.Pampa narrowed,did its strongest damage while hoover tornado was trying to form,Hesston narrowed,restrengthened and slammed into the town while gossel was trying to form,Pilger narrowed,completely swept away a house which was later rated 189mph in the end of its path just the moment wakefield was about to touch down.Though I cannot be 100% for sure all tornadoes will restrengthen as new meso forms(elmer,el reno,chapman weakened significantly as new meso trying to form ahead of them),the situation can be linked to those non—new meso—affected tornadoes when they shrink in size or near the end of their lifecycle like sherman pampa or elie.Has anyone ever explained this two phenomena or linked them together?I don't know how to explain them but from farfetched opinion,they all be influenced some type of external forces like new meso/tornado forming, own meso dying, downburst or outflow pushing,RFD or updraft shrinking,etc,which would lead to the core of the tornado tight up violently,stretch the vorticity with tinier core and smaller RMW like a hurricane moves into some cold,dry atomsphere state and tighten its eyewall,thus cause the funnel to rotate more violently.
Lots of tornadoes tend to do extreme damage in their "roping out" stage as the narrowing of the funnel increases the constriction on the winds and can accelerate them temporarily but your new mesocyclone/tornado forming nearby hypothesis is definitely interesting, but unfortunately I'm not a meteorologist so I can't really comment on it much more.
 

eric11

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Lots of tornadoes tend to do extreme damage in their "roping out" stage as the narrowing of the funnel increases the constriction on the winds and can accelerate them temporarily but your new mesocyclone/tornado forming nearby hypothesis is definitely interesting, but unfortunately I'm not a meteorologist so I can't really comment on it much more.
Even meteorologists can't give an proper explanation I guess,there are too many mysteries in tornado and I just list one of them.And some new examples pop from my head like the Dodge city tornado family also perfectly fits the law.
 
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Even meteorologists can't give an proper explanation I guess,there are too many mysteries in tornado and I just list one of them.And some new examples pop from my head like the Dodge city tornado family also perfectly fits the law.
Well it's like in that Chuck Doswell paper, it's all part of a spectrum of convective vortices in the atmosphere; physical processes just happen and we attempt to label them arbitrarily in an attempt to understand them.
 
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YT_candidate

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5
Location
Texas
I'd seen the photos of the "splitting" phenomenon from Chuck Doswell's 1995 chase logs (archived here) but hadn't read further into the discussion of it. But yes, that's another thing that makes Pampa a little different.

In this case though, the formation of Hoover actually seemed to negatively affect the intensity of the Pampa tornado in dramatic fashion - from Doswell's notes, the Pampa circulation appeared to be at its maximum strength at the peak of its mature stage (approx 7:00 in the Stubblefield's video) and then almost immediately shrank and lifted in the span of 1-2 minutes as the Hoover funnel cloud began to form. I can only assume that the storm chaser who'd said they coexisted for 6 minutes had misremembered things since their photos show Hoover didn't touch down until Pampa had largely dissipated. This process occurred as Pampa crossed Price Rd and started to track into the residential areas where the damage was much less intense. In this case I think we might've seen much more of Pampa - including possibly a photogenic rope stage as seen with Elie, Wilkin, and Dalton - had it not been for the Hoover system.

On another note, there's also some aerial footage taken of the Dalton track:


The ground scouring definitely looks more moderate than Wilkin which had pretty much dug a massive scar into the Earth, still more than Elie of course.

Speaking of Elie, I should correct my mistake - upon review the track it appears the tornado actually did cross over a part of its previous path, although this intersection hadn't occurred in the neighborhood. The slow speed almost certainly did contribute to the damage though, I would suspect the dense areas of near-total debarking probably had something to do with the debris shredding mentioned.
 
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eric11

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The saying"they coexisted for six minutes"can be found in this post http://www.okweatherwatch.com/StormObservation/texas-panhandle-tornadoes-june-8-1995/
Since he witnessed the entire life cycle of pampa and hoover,so his word may be dependable.There was no video documented how pampa died or hoover formed(One video I remember captured hoover touched town,missed a farm from rather close range).So maybe pampa lifted and then reached back to ground again briefly like the DDC2,who knows.
-351d3887ba76e1dfdf2a3fcb54140fa3.jpg 2e3570a9b788765e14fa130d4e856e4a.jpg
Wilkin did one of the most intense ground scouring mark in Northern Plains as far as I can remember.I agree your opinion on Dalton's ground scar was moderate than Wilkin,but it still looks impressive
72d90691db1c1fd1.jpg 5270c7288f62ec6e.jpg
Dalton's car damage is another one that has to be mentioned,various type of cars thrown,mangled beyond recognition,including some really big semitrailer which weighs several tons I guess.Only one drillbit tornado can match this level of car damage,pampa.
-165e6a8e15d6864b.jpg
-37f0733eb244c2f8.jpg 5bb06a5652c2f44d.jpg 3a537ae9ac2921b3.jpg -43113f457ba966a5.jpg
 
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buckeye05

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Riverside, Ohio
Does anyone have any of the damage photos from Wilkin/Tyler 2010 that show chunks of concrete ripped from the foundation of a barn that was obliterated? I remember it distinctly, but can no longer find them. They were scattered into a heavily scoured field, and it was very impressive. Probably the most impressive instance of damage from that tornado. This shows evidence of remarkably intense low-level winds.
 

YT_candidate

Member
Messages
5
Location
Texas
Doswell's chase logs do have a few pictures of Pampa's demise, with the Hoover funnel cloud in the background:

pampa25.JPG

pampa26.JPG

You can also see Pampa begin to lift at the end of Sheriff Stubblefield's video. This is basically what was represented in the 2nd photo from the OKweather blog.

Since at this point Pampa was around ~10 minutes into its 11 minute lifespan, and the mapped path of the tornado shows Pampa didn't get far into the residential area after crossing Price Road as Hoover started to coalesce, I think the 6 minute quote was just an error of memory.

Interesting aftermath photos from Dalton, had not seen those before. I will say that Mulvane's automobile damage was more impressive than I anticipated. While likely underrated I didn't remember Mulvane as being as visually impressive as some of these other tornadoes, but those cars definitely meet the definition of "mangled beyond recognition"...like some of the other drill bits on the list, Mulvane also had a spectacular shrinking/rope stage where it attained its highest wind speeds, although it seems to differ in that it didn't appear to reach violent class intensity before its shrinking stage.

Since Dalton's highest wind speeds seemed to occur closer to the end of its life, a possibility is that its ground scouring appears less prominent than Wilkin's because it was most intense when the tornado was thinner - though I'm not sure the aerial views really bear this out. But yes, undoubtedly still impressive. It would seem to me that the scour patterns from these smaller tornadoes are not necessarily far narrower than those of most violent wedges, for the most part; this seems consistent with the observation that only a small core in most such monsters is doing the worst damage (subvortices notwithstanding) whereas pretty much the entire condensation funnel of a drill bit is core. It also makes Jarrell all that much more of an anomaly.

Someday I think I am going to have to look for pictures of scouring from Pampa. A newspaper clipping mentioned that the tornado drained 10-12 ft of water from a dammed pond, coupled with what are perhaps the highest vertical wind speeds seen in any tornado to date I would think Pampa would have been more than capable. The lack of imagery is indeed quite unfortunate.

Now, as for an event that's less remarkable in terms of strength, here's Dallas/Lancaster from 2012:


Probably most well known by the public for being caught on tape lifting tractor trailors, and most well known by myself for striking pretty close to home. This footage displays an interesting transition where what had previously been a stubby medium sized stovepipe disappears and then reorganizes into an elephant trunk before restrengthening. Perhaps not uncommon, but what I don't know is whether it was entering its shrinking stage, or whether this was a "secondary" mature stage, like a reverse Andover if you will.

Does anyone have any of the damage photos from Wilkin/Tyler 2010 that show chunks of concrete ripped from the foundation of a barn that was obliterated? I remember it distinctly, but can no longer find them. They were scattered into a heavily scoured field, and it was very impressive. Probably the most impressive instance of damage from that tornado. This shows evidence of remarkably intense low-level winds.
That is indeed fascinating, I don't think I'd remembered it myself. Though they probably comprise a relatively small percentage of violent tornadoes (or, at least, violent tornadoes that were actually rated as such), drill bits certainly do seem to be responsible for quite some amount of interesting phenomena.
 
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eric11

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Does anyone have any of the damage photos from Wilkin/Tyler 2010 that show chunks of concrete ripped from the foundation of a barn that was obliterated? I remember it distinctly, but can no longer find them. They were scattered into a heavily scoured field, and it was very impressive. Probably the most impressive instance of damage from that tornado. This shows evidence of remarkably intense low-level winds.
I'm not sure whether you're refering to this one
-42f2893bed1289c9f47a2c23eb027a6d.png
 

eric11

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I found a new drone footage posted 5 days ago about Dalton EF4 which contains much more information than other drone footage
The place where the tornado first reached its peak intensity.Not only does the ground scouring stand out,but also the tornado sucked water and other things out from the pond as it left a "flooded scar" at the right of the pond.
IMG_20200726_024655.jpg
This picture captured when the tornado moved into the pond as the debris cloud turned from dark to white
245ed7006ed05ab3a2cf85b50d606322.jpg
Another view at ground level watching the tornado moving into the pond
-51e113b1d0285cdfe632b46adbd7f746.jpg
The tornado then weakened significantly since only minor vegatation or tree damage can be found.Tornado weakened and strengthened several times as it moved over open water and woods.A rapid intensification took place when tornado reached this point.As you can see,a much cleaner,narrower area lied in the center of the ground scar which I believe this path,maybe only several yards wide,is the centerline of the tornado.The same characteristic can be found in bassfield nears its peak intensity in hardwood forests area.
IMG_20200726_024826.jpg
IMG_20200726_024838.jpg
The width shrinked significantly at this point.You can also found water was sucking out of the pond and "wind rowed"to the opposite of tornado's moving direction.
IMG_20200726_024938.jpg
IMG_20200726_024952.jpg
The famous up close video filmed right here
IMG_20200726_025026.jpg
I'll take my words back cuz now it seems just as strong as wilkin even stronger judging from the ground scouring.
 

YT_candidate

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Location
Texas
I'll take my words back cuz now it seems just as strong as wilkin even stronger judging from the ground scouring.
I would be inclined to agree, that central cutting line is something else. It appears I may have been incorrect about the highest wind speeds being achieved during the shrinking stage, as it seems the most drastic scouring appears to have occurred where the tornado was widest. Think I may have to review the footage of the tornado's lifespan again.
 

eric11

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I would be inclined to agree, that central cutting line is something else. It appears I may have been incorrect about the highest wind speeds being achieved during the shrinking stage, as it seems the most drastic scouring appears to have occurred where the tornado was widest. Think I may have to review the footage of the tornado's lifespan again.
Yes, considering the contextual and car damage,It did peaked at its widest point and shortly after that it hit the machine shop,threw various vehicles and caused one fatality
-5b54af05b547e45aee2779cf4c8941d1.jpg
I cannot be sure whether it achieved the same intensity again cuz It soon got so narrower that nothing was touched except the ground and corn.It's really hard to judge what level it reached but I'd say at least Wilkin level.
Speaking of central cutting line,I thought only some high end violent tornadoes are capable of doing that.I haven't seen an obvious central cutting line left in Wilkin or Elie.
 

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