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Western_KS_Wx

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I don't like paywalls in general, but in hindsight TornadoTalk's decision to introduce a paid membership was an understandable one; they're certainly not the equivalent of a massive mainstream media outlet that already gets boatloads of revenue from online and television advertisers. Still, my biggest gripe from back when they first rolled out the change is that they put summaries which were previously free behind the paywall.

Regarding Greensburg, the more I hear about it, the more impressed I am by the fact it was already weakening as it passed through town. By this point I'm more or less convinced it would have caused West Frankfort or Smithville tier damage had it hit Greensburg at full-on intensity.
With Greensburg it really is difficult to tell exactly where it reached maximum intensity, there’s three spots on aerial imagery where the scouring in open fields appears the most intense, just after crossing Highway 183, a little over a mile south of town and then on the north side of town. I was particularly impressed with tree damage in a ravine south of town, many completely debarked or ripped out of the ground and thrown, root-balls and all. However the damage patterns were extremely complex and erratic, very clearly numerous violent vortices made especially evident within Greensburg. Also makes comparing it to other violent tornadoes a little difficult, as there really wasn’t a well-defined centerline or consistent, continuous swath of EF4-5 damage in one part of the tornado. One example of this is as it crossed Highway 400 (also called Kansas Avenue) there were 3 separate swaths of extreme EF4-EF5 damage simultaneously, all evenly spaced a couple hundred yards apart with clearly weaker damage in between. The main ‘centerline’ of the tornado shortly after crossing the highway weakened causing mostly EF2 and spotty EF3 damage, while two separate areas of EF4+ damage on the east and west side of the centerline persisted, before it all seemed to come together past the railroad tracks. That being said, the damage in several areas is well on par with some of the most violent ever documented.

Wasn’t Smithville one of the events that the NWS lost a lot of info on? It was some sort of website revamp that they did if I remember correctly. That is one of the tornadoes of 4/27 that I wish had been more thoroughly surveyed.

TornadoTalk’s article is pretty good but I still think there are several damage feats and unanswered questions that we may never know about or the answers to.
Smithville and several tornadoes from that day did have some information lost on the official NWS website if my memory is correct. Quite a few of the violent tornadoes and especially the EF3 tornadoes were pretty poorly surveyed and TornadoTalk uncovered several spots of violent tornado damage that was missed by surveyors. I truly believe the true number of violent tornadoes that day was likely well over 20.
 

pohnpei

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With Greensburg it really is difficult to tell exactly where it reached maximum intensity, there’s three spots on aerial imagery where the scouring in open fields appears the most intense, just after crossing Highway 183, a little over a mile south of town and then on the north side of town. I was particularly impressed with tree damage in a ravine south of town, many completely debarked or ripped out of the ground and thrown, root-balls and all. However the damage patterns were extremely complex and erratic, very clearly numerous violent vortices made especially evident within Greensburg. Also makes comparing it to other violent tornadoes a little difficult, as there really wasn’t a well-defined centerline or consistent, continuous swath of EF4-5 damage in one part of the tornado. One example of this is as it crossed Highway 400 (also called Kansas Avenue) there were 3 separate swaths of extreme EF4-EF5 damage simultaneously, all evenly spaced a couple hundred yards apart with clearly weaker damage in between. The main ‘centerline’ of the tornado shortly after crossing the highway weakened causing mostly EF2 and spotty EF3 damage, while two separate areas of EF4+ damage on the east and west side of the centerline persisted, before it all seemed to come together past the railroad tracks. That being said, the damage in several areas is well on par with some of the most violent ever documented.


Smithville and several tornadoes from that day did have some information lost on the official NWS website if my memory is correct. Quite a few of the violent tornadoes and especially the EF3 tornadoes were pretty poorly surveyed and TornadoTalk uncovered several spots of violent tornado damage that was missed by surveyors. I truly believe the true number of violent tornadoes that day was likely well over 20.
I want to ask that was the scar south of the town in this picture actually scouring and represent the core of the tornado?(surprisingly narrow core?)
SAVE_20231201_091007.jpg
 

Western_KS_Wx

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I want to ask that was the scar south of the town in this picture actually scouring and represent the core of the tornado?(surprisingly narrow core?)
View attachment 22214
Yeah that is scouring, the core was pretty narrow - but not crazily small - main swath of that inner vortex ranged from 75-130 yards wide or so, but EF3+ damage extended very near a mile in width at its peak. I won’t lie I myself am very perplexed at the structure and damage pattern of the tornado. Satellite imagery like that image shows a well pronounced vortex and centerline (along with some very impressive wind-rowing as it enters town) but then when it gets to Greensburg it kind of just disappears I guess lol. The main violent damage swath is skewed quite a lot more toward the left of the center of the vortex than on the right side, but structural damage was rather inconsistent for its entire path. On Highway 183 there was scouring and damage approaching or exceeding EF4 intensity evident along a nearly 1.3 mile stretch from north to south along the highway, albeit the scouring was sporadic at times and there wasn’t really a clear defined centerline.

Here’s some photos that really show just how completely random the bursts of extreme winds were.
021B12BB-6FB4-44D5-8CC9-2E41114B293A.jpeg
182FA9CD-A088-460E-AAB4-204D3FEA24D8.jpeg
AC4D93BA-5DBD-433D-9B54-68688C96F65D.jpeg
Three homes that sustained EF1-EF2 damage surrounded by incredible vegetation damage, including completely stripped and debarked shrubbery in the second photo, and grass ripped from the ground in the last image.

914D230B-BB69-4E13-94ED-4A9171D1FA7D.jpeg
This area of damage genuinely confuses me. An extremely intense subvortex misses the house to the left by literal feet and the property is surrounded by extreme vegetation damage yet no where near violent structural damage to this relatively poorly built home. Reminds me of the image from Guin showing an intact home right next to EF5-level vegetation damage.
0658ACB6-70AD-430F-9881-0E82CBD72E89.jpeg
Same home from the south looking north, homes a block south and north were completely flattened or wiped away experiencing winds that were no doubt well into the EF5 range, not to mention the ridiculously high-end debarking including low-lying shrubs on both sides of the property. A couple home owners never located their vehicles in this area, mainly because they were essentially pulverized to pieces which you can make out within the debris field, yet that lone home remains standing.
 
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joshoctober16

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Yeah that is scouring, the core was pretty narrow - but not crazily small - main swath of that inner vortex ranged from 75-130 yards wide or so, but EF3+ damage extended very near a mile in width at its peak. I won’t lie I myself am very perplexed at the structure and damage pattern of the tornado. Satellite imagery like that image shows a well pronounced vortex and centerline (along with some very impressive wind-rowing as it enters town) but then when it gets to Greensburg it kind of just disappears I guess lol. The main violent damage swath is skewed quite a lot more toward the left of the center of the vortex than on the right side, but structural damage was rather inconsistent for its entire path. On Highway 183 there was scouring and damage approaching or exceeding EF4 intensity evident along a nearly 1.3 mile stretch from north to south along the highway, albeit the scouring was sporadic at times and there wasn’t really a clear defined centerline.

Here’s some photos that really show just how completely random the bursts of extreme winds were.
View attachment 22218
View attachment 22219
View attachment 22225
Three homes that sustained EF1-EF2 damage surrounded by incredible vegetation damage, including completely stripped and debarked shrubbery in the second photo, and grass ripped from the ground in the last image.

View attachment 22220
This area of damage genuinely confuses me. An extremely intense subvortex misses the house to the left by literal feet and the property is surrounded by extreme vegetation damage yet no where near violent structural damage to this relatively poorly built home. Reminds me of the image from Guin showing an intact home right next to EF5-level vegetation damage.
View attachment 22222
Same home from the south looking north, homes a block south and north were completely flattened or wiped away experiencing winds that were no doubt well into the EF5 range, not to mention the ridiculously high-end debarking including low-lying shrubs on both sides of the property. A couple home owners never located their vehicles in this area, mainly because they were essentially pulverized to pieces which you can make out within the debris field, yet that lone home remains standing.
i can for sure tell NWS would not rate this tornado EF5 post 2014, mostly because the trees have to be all pulled out within 100 yards.

however its obvious suction vortex exist, and its easy to tell that this is one of these cases, im pretty sure the main Rainsville EF5 damage has low shrubs standing not even debarked, with its leafs still on, just within 1-3 feet.
 

Western_KS_Wx

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i can for sure tell NWS would not rate this tornado EF5 post 2014, mostly because the trees have to be all pulled out within 100 yards.

however its obvious suction vortex exist, and its easy to tell that this is one of these cases, im pretty sure the main Rainsville EF5 damage has low shrubs standing not even debarked, with its leafs still on, just within 1-3 feet.
I’m pretty confident it would still be rated that today, I will say however a couple of the homes rated EF5 by Tim Marshall were somewhat questionable, and I believe there were better candidates to several other homes in town. The highschool alone definitely warrants an EF5 rating, Tim considers it EF5 damage to this day and is easily among the most intense to a school documented. A couple structures downtown and buildings near the BTI company were solid EF5 candidates as well. Definitely no shortage of contextual/vegetation damage, fire hydrants removed, storm drain covers, vehicle damage and debris granulation to name a few.
 

joshoctober16

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I’m pretty confident it would still be rated that today, I will say however a couple of the homes rated EF5 by Tim Marshall were somewhat questionable, and I believe there were better candidates to several other homes in town. The highschool alone definitely warrants an EF5 rating, Tim considers it EF5 damage to this day and is easily among the most intense to a school documented. A couple structures downtown and buildings near the BTI company were solid EF5 candidates as well. Definitely no shortage of contextual/vegetation damage, fire hydrants removed, storm drain covers, vehicle damage and debris granulation to name a few.
wait it tore fire hydrants out? and storm drain covers? odd i never seen these photos.

also i dont think it matters how impressive the damage is, each time it seems EF5 ish they use the whole tree standing up reason to blocks it, every images ive seen still has trees standing within 100 yards, also even if it did im pretty sure they would say that debris form the other homes made the damage much more severe.

also interestingly they cant rate a tornado EF5 even thought it was EF5 damage if its only one di.... a weird issue.

i still think greensburg is a EF5, however if you follow the NWS 2014+ rules.... no it isn't apparently.

again i know they posted somewhere stating el reno 2011 would not be rated EF5 today.
 
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TH2002

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View attachment 22220
This area of damage genuinely confuses me. An extremely intense subvortex misses the house to the left by literal feet and the property is surrounded by extreme vegetation damage yet no where near violent structural damage to this relatively poorly built home. Reminds me of the image from Guin showing an intact home right next to EF5-level vegetation damage.
That photo in particular reminded me of this damage from Elie. Note how the most intense part of the tornado clipped the house at the bottom, sweeping that part of it down to the concrete slab, yet most of the rest of house is standing with comparatively light damage. The surrounding damage to vegetation isn't consistent with F5 winds either:
elie-aerial-damage-edt.png


As shown in these photos from Mulvane and Lužice, tornadoes also have a thing for leaving power poles (which can be downed by EF1 winds) still standing amidst violent damage:
mulvane-damage-landis-home-jpg.14373

img-1050-jpeg.11795
 

joshoctober16

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That photo in particular reminded me of this damage from Elie. Note how the most intense part of the tornado clipped the house at the bottom, sweeping that part of it down to the concrete slab, yet most of the rest of house is standing with comparatively light damage. The surrounding damage to vegetation isn't consistent with F5 winds either:
elie-aerial-damage-edt.png


As shown in these photos from Mulvane and Lužice, tornadoes also have a thing for leaving power poles (which can be downed by EF1 winds) still standing amidst violent damage:
mulvane-damage-landis-home-jpg.14373

img-1050-jpeg.11795


this one?
if so i wondered , elie 2007 and jarrell 1997 were said to be hybrid tornadoes (pretty much think landspout forming in a supercell tornado) was mulvane said to be a hybrid like them?

im not sure why nws now acts as if multi vortex and drillbit don't exist now for rating tornadoes...
 

csx1985

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Yeah that is scouring, the core was pretty narrow - but not crazily small - main swath of that inner vortex ranged from 75-130 yards wide or so, but EF3+ damage extended very near a mile in width at its peak. I won’t lie I myself am very perplexed at the structure and damage pattern of the tornado. Satellite imagery like that image shows a well pronounced vortex and centerline (along with some very impressive wind-rowing as it enters town) but then when it gets to Greensburg it kind of just disappears I guess lol. The main violent damage swath is skewed quite a lot more toward the left of the center of the vortex than on the right side, but structural damage was rather inconsistent for its entire path. On Highway 183 there was scouring and damage approaching or exceeding EF4 intensity evident along a nearly 1.3 mile stretch from north to south along the highway, albeit the scouring was sporadic at times and there wasn’t really a clear defined centerline.

Here’s some photos that really show just how completely random the bursts of extreme winds were.
View attachment 22218
View attachment 22219
View attachment 22225
Three homes that sustained EF1-EF2 damage surrounded by incredible vegetation damage, including completely stripped and debarked shrubbery in the second photo, and grass ripped from the ground in the last image.

View attachment 22220
This area of damage genuinely confuses me. An extremely intense subvortex misses the house to the left by literal feet and the property is surrounded by extreme vegetation damage yet no where near violent structural damage to this relatively poorly built home. Reminds me of the image from Guin showing an intact home right next to EF5-level vegetation damage.
View attachment 22222
Same home from the south looking north, homes a block south and north were completely flattened or wiped away experiencing winds that were no doubt well into the EF5 range, not to mention the ridiculously high-end debarking including low-lying shrubs on both sides of the property. A couple home owners never located their vehicles in this area, mainly because they were essentially pulverized to pieces which you can make out within the debris field, yet that lone home remains standing.
The inner vortex or “core” of a tornado. Is it a main (most violent) single funnel inside a tornado? Are the subvorticies surrounding the inner vortex just as powerful?
 

pohnpei

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That photo in particular reminded me of this damage from Elie. Note how the most intense part of the tornado clipped the house at the bottom, sweeping that part of it down to the concrete slab, yet most of the rest of house is standing with comparatively light damage. The surrounding damage to vegetation isn't consistent with F5 winds either:
elie-aerial-damage-edt.png


As shown in these photos from Mulvane and Lužice, tornadoes also have a thing for leaving power poles (which can be downed by EF1 winds) still standing amidst violent damage:
mulvane-damage-landis-home-jpg.14373

img-1050-jpeg.11795
There were videos showed poles can go down in winds well under EF0 level but it can remain standing in peak intensity area of Bridge Creek with over 300mph winds. You could see that famous "trcuk wrapped around pole" in the distance of the photo.
11c494bf523ec2f0.jpg
Mulhall the same day had winds into 270-290mph range and widespread very high winds yet literary no impressive contextual damage turn up.

Tornadotalk's article specificly mentioned that tree damage exactly under where 295.5mph winds of El Reno 11 tornado was very normal or even weak (pic can't show) though tree damage in other places along the path was extreme.

Jame Ladue once told me that he surveyed shawnee tornado last year and found that multiple transmission towers bent and twisted(EF3 damage) with house nearby with barely EF1 level damage.

Lebanon KS EF3 intercepted by TIV with insane winds showed up in their footage yet tress just near their vehicle was completely intact with healthy leaves.

Czech tornado 2021 had one grove of trees in hrusky completely debarked yet houses surrounded only had their roofs damaged. Survey team mentioned house damage seems to be less than what tree damage showed along the path.

There were many many incongruities in various types of tornados that I noticed. Some can be explained by subvortex and tree species, while some cann't be that simply explained which makes tornado more interesting.
 

pohnpei

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Yeah that is scouring, the core was pretty narrow - but not crazily small - main swath of that inner vortex ranged from 75-130 yards wide or so, but EF3+ damage extended very near a mile in width at its peak. I won’t lie I myself am very perplexed at the structure and damage pattern of the tornado. Satellite imagery like that image shows a well pronounced vortex and centerline (along with some very impressive wind-rowing as it enters town) but then when it gets to Greensburg it kind of just disappears I guess lol. The main violent damage swath is skewed quite a lot more toward the left of the center of the vortex than on the right side, but structural damage was rather inconsistent for its entire path. On Highway 183 there was scouring and damage approaching or exceeding EF4 intensity evident along a nearly 1.3 mile stretch from north to south along the highway, albeit the scouring was sporadic at times and there wasn’t really a clear defined centerline.

Here’s some photos that really show just how completely random the bursts of extreme winds were.
View attachment 22218
View attachment 22219
View attachment 22225
Three homes that sustained EF1-EF2 damage surrounded by incredible vegetation damage, including completely stripped and debarked shrubbery in the second photo, and grass ripped from the ground in the last image.

View attachment 22220
This area of damage genuinely confuses me. An extremely intense subvortex misses the house to the left by literal feet and the property is surrounded by extreme vegetation damage yet no where near violent structural damage to this relatively poorly built home. Reminds me of the image from Guin showing an intact home right next to EF5-level vegetation damage.
View attachment 22222
Same home from the south looking north, homes a block south and north were completely flattened or wiped away experiencing winds that were no doubt well into the EF5 range, not to mention the ridiculously high-end debarking including low-lying shrubs on both sides of the property. A couple home owners never located their vehicles in this area, mainly because they were essentially pulverized to pieces which you can make out within the debris field, yet that lone home remains standing.
Hackleburg also had phenomenon similar to this at times.
Screenshot_2023-12-01-16-41-38-948_com.tencent.mobileqq-edit.jpg
IMG_20231201_164604.jpg
Screenshot_2023-12-01-16-41-50-969_com.tencent.mobileqq-edit.jpg
IMG_20231201_164621.jpg
These two houses were all near or at the center of the tornado vortex at its peak intensity with impressive contextual damage apparently yet only EF0-1 level damage to the house itself and we know Hackleburg had a pretty clear and persistent core.
 

locomusic01

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Does anyone know of any PDFs or online files of Grazulis' works?
Didn't read the whole discussion so I'm not sure what you're looking for specifically, but the 1880-1989 version of Significant Tornadoes is free on Google Books. I think I have a PDF of the F5-F6 booklet somewhere also but I'd have to dig around for it. I thought The Tornado: Nature's Ultimate Windstorm was on Google Books at some point too but I may have imagined that. I have a physical copy but no PDF. You can also find several of Grazulis' papers via Google Scholar, although it's mostly just older research that formed the basis of his books.
 
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Didn't read the whole discussion so I'm not sure what you're looking for specifically, but the 1880-1989 version of Significant Tornadoes is free on Google Books. I think I have a PDF of the F5-F6 booklet somewhere also but I'd have to dig around for it. I thought The Tornado: Nature's Ultimate Windstorm was on Google Books at some point too but I may have imagined that. I have a physical copy but no PDF. You can also find several of Grazulis' papers via Google Scholar, although it's mostly just older research that formed the basis of his books.
I have the 1880-1989 file from Google Books, THE TORNADO: NATURE"S ULTIMATE WINDSTORM I have a PDF of & I have a scanned PDF of F5-F6 TORNADOES. I wish I could find stuff of the 1680-1991 or 1992-1995 updates online but no luck.
 
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Didn't read the whole discussion so I'm not sure what you're looking for specifically, but the 1880-1989 version of Significant Tornadoes is free on Google Books. I think I have a PDF of the F5-F6 booklet somewhere also but I'd have to dig around for it. I thought The Tornado: Nature's Ultimate Windstorm was on Google Books at some point too but I may have imagined that. I have a physical copy but no PDF. You can also find several of Grazulis' papers via Google Scholar, although it's mostly just older research that formed the basis of his books.
Also, been awhile since you've been here! Nice to see you again! Is the New Richmond article coming along fine? Have you placed an ordered for new Grazulis book yet or not? I'm hesitant to do so.
Anyways, I'm still chugging along in life and reading about tornadoes on the side, wishing I had following my childhood dreams of being a meteorologist. I'm also eagerly awaiting next year when TornadoTalk published a bunch of April 3, 1974 articles (including Guin) and maybe some more on 4/27/11 tornadoes.
 

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Also, been awhile since you've been here! Nice to see you again! Is the New Richmond article coming along fine? Have you placed an ordered for new Grazulis book yet or not? I'm hesitant to do so.
Anyways, I'm still chugging along in life and reading about tornadoes on the side, wishing I had following my childhood dreams of being a meteorologist. I'm also eagerly awaiting next year when TornadoTalk published a bunch of April 3, 1974 articles (including Guin) and maybe some more on 4/27/11 tornadoes.
Thanks! There's been a ton of stuff going on the last few months so I haven't been able to do much on New Richmond, but it's been probably 80% done for what feels like forever. Finally started working on it a bit again yesterday, which is what prompted me to drop in. It's been frustrating being so close but hopefully I can get it done soon.

I'd totally forgotten about the new SigTor tbh. I'll probably get it eventually, but I'm not sure how useful it'd be to me. Definitely looking forward to Tornado Talk's Super Outbreak stuff though, and not at all jealous about the opportunity to go and do research in person lol
 

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a collection of some damage pics of Robinson tornado this year
IMG_20231202_082634.jpg338709690_6735461739798022_1360495876480728515_n.jpgGAXpC_EXMAAeH9N.jpg20231203_071012.jpgIMG_8333.pngIMG_8334.png339471881_633219678636903_2908981862325577513_n.jpg
a truly powerful tornado with even damage on the weak side of circulation(moving at 72mph) got 160mph rating. Vehicles were mangled and tossed long distance in multiple places.
It weakened significantly before entering sullivan yet still made impressive debarking and wind rowing(notice the first pic below)
339325579_896246744915763_1242857271812011762_n.jpgimage-454.png
Houses with bolts(black circle) completely swept clean.
 
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On a side note, for all of those who don't know, or already know, NWS of Lincoln is currently in the process of re-evaluating their portion of Robinson. If you have information they don't have, including of areas SW of Robinson, it would be a great help for those in that office! 1701607690773.png
 
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Thanks! There's been a ton of stuff going on the last few months so I haven't been able to do much on New Richmond, but it's been probably 80% done for what feels like forever. Finally started working on it a bit again yesterday, which is what prompted me to drop in. It's been frustrating being so close but hopefully I can get it done soon.

I'd totally forgotten about the new SigTor tbh. I'll probably get it eventually, but I'm not sure how useful it'd be to me. Definitely looking forward to Tornado Talk's Super Outbreak stuff though, and not at all jealous about the opportunity to go and do research in person lol
Sorry if beating a dead horse but did you get any more photos from 5/31/85? Anything more of Niles-Wheatland, videos of Kane/Atlantic/Albion or the holy grail; a photo of Moshannon State Forest. Or is that stuff pretty much gone the way of the buffalo?
 

bowecho7

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a collection of some damage pics of Robinson tornado this year
View attachment 22253View attachment 22254View attachment 22255View attachment 22256View attachment 22257View attachment 22258View attachment 22259
a truly powerful tornado with even damage on the weak side of circulation(moving at 72mph) got 160mph rating. Vehicles were mangled and tossed long distance in multiple places.
It weakened significantly before entering sullivan yet still made impressive debarking and wind rowing(notice the first pic below)
View attachment 22260View attachment 22261
Houses with bolts(black circle) completely swept clean.
I've seen most of these pics, however I do not recognize the last two. The small picture is from the airport. However, are the rest of them from the same location, the house across the street from the college on Hwy 1? Are the last two from the same house across from the college or from Sullivan? Any help appreciated.
 

pohnpei

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I've seen most of these pics, however I do not recognize the last two. The small picture is from the airport. However, are the rest of them from the same location, the house across the street from the college on Hwy 1? Are the last two from the same house across from the college or from Sullivan? Any help appreciated.
The second and seventh photo was from the first photo area and the third photo was from airport. The last two photo were probably from this area, west of Sullivan.
image-66.png
image-730.png
I am not sure about the fourth and fifth photo but it's likely near the first picture area.
 
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