Significant Tornado Events

[TH2002]

Lol yes. I have way too many punk and metal shirts (it's now spilling into my online profile pics for most threads I'm involved with). One of these days I'm gonna post pics of my battle jackets when I finally finish them and use them for my profile pic.
Yeah, I like lots of 80s and 90s hardcore, along with crust, powerviolence, grindcore and related genres. I'm also into thrash & death metal. I'm that rare individual that flits between punks and metalhead guys and gals.
We could take this conversation to the "getting to know our users" thread (or something to that effect) so the mods don't get upset lol.
Anyways, awesome you like my kind of music! I'll try to steer back to the main topic now.

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.

This previous post on Goldsby shows a ton of proof of EF5 damage from it:

Significant Tornado Events

That last photo is a fake. It's a digitally aged photo of the 2013 Shawnee, OK EF4. There's also photo of the 2003 O'Neill, NE tornado being passed off as the San Justo tornado, which there are no actual photos of. IDK know why people feel the need to fabricate pieces of tornado history. In any...

talkweather.com

Some photos I hadn't seen before in that post, including an alternate angle of that brand new home in Goldsby. In Tim Marshall's presentation differentiating EF4 and EF5 damage (can't find the slides at the moment but I'm sure they're still out there) I specifically remember that on the slide "That's why context is so important" this house is pictured at an angle where the scouring isn't visible and he writes "the fence is still standing and no scouring"... well, doesn't it look like there actually WAS scouring next to that home?

Would Tim Marshall actually lie about the scouring that occurred near this house or did he simply make a mistake? I'll leave that to speculation, though in a PDF I found a whole different reason for the downgrade is given: apparently the "small washers" are what prevented an EF5 rating. Vague and probably BS, and when the reasons to keep an obvious EF5 rating at EF4 sound desperate to the point of hilarity, maybe it's time to realize that ya dun goofed.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.


Some photos I hadn't seen before in that post, including an alternate angle of that brand new home in Goldsby. In Tim Marshall's presentation differentiating EF4 and EF5 damage (can't find the slides at the moment but I'm sure they're still out there) I specifically remember that on the slide "That's why context is so important" this house is pictured at an angle where the scouring isn't visible and he writes "the fence is still standing and no scouring"... well, doesn't it look like there actually WAS scouring next to that home?

Would Tim Marshall actually lie about the scouring that occurred near this house or did he simply make a mistake? I'll leave that to speculation, though in a PDF I found a whole different reason for the downgrade is given: apparently the "small washers" are what prevented an EF5 rating. Vague and probably BS, and when the reasons to keep an obvious EF5 rating at EF4 sound desperate to the point of hilarity, maybe it's time to realize that ya dun goofed.

Yeah, I wonder if he might have lied here. It's becoming clear that he was screwing up hard before Vilonia.

 

[tornado examiner]

tim marshall has a big history of dun goofing imo. from 2011 all the way to 2021....thank god he didnt have influence of any of the EF4 tornadoes this year. he'd have probably rated winterset mid to high end EF3 and pembroke a 170 mph EF4......

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

tim marshall has a big history of dun goofing imo. from 2011 all the way to 2021....thank god he didnt have influence of any of the EF4 tornadoes this year. he'd have probably rated winterset mid to high end EF3 and pembroke a 170 mph EF4......

The Westminster, TX 2006 tornado was rated a high-end F3 by Tim Marshall. There is no way on God's green earth that tornado should have been rated less than a high-end F4. To me that is the bare minimum and I see at least a good case for an F5 rating.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.


Some photos I hadn't seen before in that post, including an alternate angle of that brand new home in Goldsby. In Tim Marshall's presentation differentiating EF4 and EF5 damage (can't find the slides at the moment but I'm sure they're still out there) I specifically remember that on the slide "That's why context is so important" this house is pictured at an angle where the scouring isn't visible and he writes "the fence is still standing and no scouring"... well, doesn't it look like there actually WAS scouring next to that home?

Would Tim Marshall actually lie about the scouring that occurred near this house or did he simply make a mistake? I'll leave that to speculation, though in a PDF I found a whole different reason for the downgrade is given: apparently the "small washers" are what prevented an EF5 rating. Vague and probably BS, and when the reasons to keep an obvious EF5 rating at EF4 sound desperate to the point of hilarity, maybe it's time to realize that ya dun goofed.

Based on what you, others, and Juliet Bravo Kilo have said and what little I know that certainly look like certain EF5 damage. I at times tend be somewhat conservative but that kind of phenomena is incredible and EF5 worthy. Anything that is of at least of mid to high-end EF4+ intensity I associate with incredible phenomena.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.


Some photos I hadn't seen before in that post, including an alternate angle of that brand new home in Goldsby. In Tim Marshall's presentation differentiating EF4 and EF5 damage (can't find the slides at the moment but I'm sure they're still out there) I specifically remember that on the slide "That's why context is so important" this house is pictured at an angle where the scouring isn't visible and he writes "the fence is still standing and no scouring"... well, doesn't it look like there actually WAS scouring next to that home?

Would Tim Marshall actually lie about the scouring that occurred near this house or did he simply make a mistake? I'll leave that to speculation, though in a PDF I found a whole different reason for the downgrade is given: apparently the "small washers" are what prevented an EF5 rating. Vague and probably BS, and when the reasons to keep an obvious EF5 rating at EF4 sound desperate to the point of hilarity, maybe it's time to realize that ya dun goofed.

Construction is one thing on a tornadoes rating but also multiple vortices also play a huge part and doesn't do everything like you want it to to give it an EF5 rating.

 

[tornado examiner]

of the two 200mph EF4's of may 24 2011. which one do y'all think was more worthy of the EF5 rating they both deserved?

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

of the two 200mph EF4's of may 24 2011. which one do y'all think was more worthy of the EF5 rating they both deserved?

That could be rather difficult to say because both tornadoes certainly gave the El Reno tornado that day a run for its money. Both tornadoes very likely had the potential to do what the El Reno tornado did to those oil rigs.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

Yeah, I wonder if he might have lied here. It's becoming clear that he was screwing up hard before Vilonia.

To be fair I am not sure if he seen all the houses in Mayflower/Vilonia but in any case the Vilonia 2014 tornado was a clear cut EF5 to me.

 

[tornado examiner]

which of the 9 EF5's is the damage from the mayfield tornado most comparable too?

it did things similar too the top tier EF5's of 2011....like the debris granulation from smithville and trench digging from Philadelphia.

 

[Sawmaster]

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.

I might be game for this. To say the least my musical tastes are eclectic but dated. Long and deep into punk, new wave, early metal, some NDH, a bit of jazz, some classical, electronica, old country music, and much more

I don't know that or if Marshall has intentionally or otherwise made regular errors, but there is no place for anyone who does not do their job well for any reason. It's not about making things fit your concepts, but making your concepts fit the reality of things.

The one thing I'm sure of is that high ratings have become extremely rare where they were once given, which renders useless any previous ratings because new will not match old. Do we throw out the findings of Grazulis because his "5" equals "3.5" today? Or does it make more sense to follow what is already there and introduce a "5+" or a "6" if we think more is needed to differentiate modern standards in a way which will not be misunderstood?

I give you the "Beaufort" wind scale, universally used and understood by mariners world-wide. Advances in technology may have made exact measured winds better correlate to the scale, but nobody has tried to change what the numbers mean in the effects they have. It's value lies in it's unchanging universal definitions based on it's effects to ships at sea. Anyone trying to change it would rightfully be dismissed as being someone not worth listening to. That's what we need to be doing here.

Phil

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Damage from the 2013 Washington IL tornado:

 

[pohnpei]

Damage from the 2013 Washington IL tornado:

One thing I noticed from some of the photos and other photos of Washington is the shrub damage was not as extreme as Chickasha/Smithville/Pakersburg/Hackleburg.

 

[locomusic01]

Oh that’s April 20 1996 in Ontario. I forget which tornado it was (one from the northern cell and one from the southern), but it was one of the two.

Thanks!

Btw, just a quick update. I got a big influx of emails and messages on the anniversary, so since I couldn't get it done in time anyway I figured I'd take a few more days to sort through everything and add some of the new stuff to the article. Actually one of the people I heard from is the woman whose grandparents supposedly took pictures of the Moshannon tornado. I've learned to be highly skeptical until people actually follow through with sending the photos, but she said she's going to her parents' house tomorrow to look for them. We'll see I guess.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Maybe we should start an off topic thread to discuss music? Think it's actually a good idea tbh.

A thread for music, movies, books, and pop culture in general would probably be a good idea. Perhaps I can try and start something up in the next few days...

 

[TH2002]

One of the worst parts about that PDF I found isn't even the obvious BS surrounding Goldsby, it's this:

However, it is unknown if consistent reasons were considered in past surveys of "slabbed" homes that ended up with F5/EF-5 ratings. Also, it seems to suggest the need for a centralized database containing documentation (photographs with descriptions of the damage, construction and reasons for rating) of structures which were rated highly on the EF-scale.

First of all, it's no secret that there ARE a number of past F5's that are questionable. HOWEVER:

In other words, no close up detailed photos of a PERFECTLY constructed home with "appropriately sized" anchor bolts and "not small" washers? No F5 rating. Which means basically no tornado pre-1990s or so would be able to achieve an F5/EF5 rating. Hell, if they can so thoroughly nitpick well documented more recent tornadoes like Chickasha and Goldsby, the nitpicking streaks for more loosely documented 20th and 19th century tornadoes would be practically endless.

Honestly, I feel the ratings of historic tornadoes should be left alone for the most part, with sporadic exceptions for obvious cases like the Palm Sunday outbreak, which was seemingly rated using this kind of logic. Huh, someone using a fuzzy 1960's consumer film camera didn't capture a clear photo of a house with great looking anchor bolts and large washers? F4.

 

[AngelAndHisWx]

Yes! I thought this looked familiar. I lost it, but I once had a book that detailed both of those tornadoes, with personal accounts from people along the paths who were hit by the tornadoes. It was a really good read, and I wish I could remember what it was called and where I left it.

It’s called Under the Whirlwind (I have the second edition, which I believe the only difference is version two also chronicles the two author’s 2001 storm chase season, with some close pictures of White Deer on 5/29). I *think* the book is still in print, but I know the two authors were in not so great health these days.

 

[TH2002]

I know I haven't been able to shut up about Hackleburg lately, but I found some new stuff people might find interesting.

First of all, I am aware that this photo has been posted before, but to compliment the scouring, this is apparently the brick home along Hwy 237 that allegedly had its basement walls caved in and carport dislodged. No way to tell for sure without an extreme close up, but no doubt this home experienced some extremely violent winds. If so, this is likely some Brandenburg-esque damage.


Remains of the Phil Campbell Church of God; the church itself was reduced to its slab, and extensive ground scouring occurred.



Large home that was reduced to its foundation between Hackleburg and Phil Campbell


General destruction in Phil Campbell; note what looks like a slabbed home in the background.


Yet another swept away home in Phil Campbell, interesting how this one got an EF4 rating attached to it considering some of the DI's that got EF5.

Finally, a return label from Phil Campbell that reportedly traveled over 100 miles:

 

[pohnpei]

As we are on Hackleburg topic
Here's some Incredible debarking to even hardwood outside of Hackleburg

Vehicles were mangled into unrecoginizable fashion near this place.


Incredible damage inside the town

Before and after view of Mount Hope EF5 rating Restaurant

 

[SouthFLwx]

As we are on Hackleburg topic
Here's some Incredible debarking to even hardwood outside of Hackleburg
View attachment 14425View attachment 14426View attachment 14427
Vehicles were mangled into unrecoginizable fashion near this place.
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Incredible damage inside the town
View attachment 14430View attachment 14429View attachment 14428
Before and after view of Mount Hope EF5 rating Restaurant
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This is probably some of the most violent damage I have seen from Hackleburg, especially in that third picture. Looks like some low-lying shrubbery was completely anhiliated.