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Significant Tornado Events
- Thread starter locomusic01
- Start date
joshoctober16
Member
yes i know that , seems like dodge city 2016 is a example of a cycloidal scouring made by non suction vortices , however some are made by suction vortices , like el reno 2013 , Smithville 2011.
talking about suction vortices i am not sure if Rainsville 2011 has cycloidal marks, but if it does it would be by suction vortices as well , there are some videos of the moment its doing the EF5 damage , it was clearly done by strong roaring suction vortices.
still frame of the moment.
joshoctober16
Member
el reno 2013 had one big cycloidal mark, it wasn't a full one , but it was there.
there are also some smaller other marks , like near the start of the path , and south of the airport
(where it states suction vortex)
main big suction vortex path.
csx1985
Member
I’m familiar with Smithville’s ground scouring but I would like to see a photo of these cycloidal marks. I was not aware they existed.
Image credit to Saltical of course. he also discovered that Smithville was actually 2 tornadoes.
Which @joshoctober16 seems to have disproven earlier in this thread, showing blowdown across the alleged gap:
This anonymous unqualified person sounds like a strong enthusiast but one who seeks evidence to fit his ideas, rather than letting it shape his ideas. I certainly don't see anything that indicates he's read that thesis I linked.
If you're not going to post any of the fundamental basis - like formulae and mechanisms - as to how he's coming to these conclusions, then I'm not going to give them much credence.
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I believe there was also blowdown between New Wren and Smithville, which were definitely seperate tornadoes. blowdown isn't always tornadic. There is lots of proof that Smithville was 2 tornadoes.
"Using radar data I can confirm the time and location of the couplet at multiple points throughout the life cycle of the supercell. And using this data I can determine the forward speeds of the tornadoes between those radar scans. By using this info, I noticed an anomaly in the forward speeds The forward speed of the supposed single Smithville tornado averaged 50-70 mph throughout scans, except for at one location There is a 0.41mi gap in the damage path present before the stateline. The couplet travelled >2000m in 40s, in order to do so the Smithville tornado would've had to move at speeds up to 139 mph to cover that ground in the given time. The only logical solution is that a handoff occured with the new circulation developing further east out in front of the old circulation which is now dissipating at this point"
also, i believe the area of the cycle has a very strange deviation, almost like a Z. this type of movement would be very unlikely from a fast moving tornado like Smithville.
I'm going to need to see a lot more hard evidence before I believe that a) Robinson was a stronger tornado than Smithville and b) that a 0.41 mile "gap" in damage is representative of two distinct tornadoes with a storm moving 65+ mph.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I wrote Robinson’s Wikipedia article and in my research I can 100% say it was not stronger than Smithville. Incredibly strong? Yes. Smithville strong? Absolutely not. As for Smithville, I personally believe they were one tornado but it’s debatable.
Re: the two tornadoes thing, a 0.41 mile damage "gap" with an odd pattern could easily just mean separate multiple vortices within the same tornadic circulation, especially one that is fast moving.
joshoctober16
Member
im very 50/50 on smithville being 2 tornadoes.
its either
1:the smithville tornado weaken going north and then died, had a replacement tornado form almost where the last one was and made no true gap, the second tornado very likely was EF5 if true.
2:the smithville tornado weaken going north , then made a loop as a EF0 , and later on turned back into a wedge with very likely EF5 winds
would need to see a radar velocity of this moment to see what happend.
one thing to note that could both be sneaky to make seem like it was or wasnt 2 tornadoes is...
there are signs of strong EF0 damage in this apparently gap , however it is to note.
1:it could of been a microburst , or the second tornado touched down going south for a few seconds.
2:it is the same tornado and weak to mid EF0 damage can not be seen on sat images (visible tornado tree damage starts at strong EF0)
a example of a tornado appearing to die but didnt and a tornado that did cycle but isnt listed as cycled are...
Pilger EF4 2014 (the one that hit the town) hit the town of Pilger as a very strong EF4 , weakened and almost did a loop , appeared to rope out , but was infact still on the ground , just invisible, and was at a weak EF1 stage , then restraighten to a strong EF4 (the famous double wedge image is during this)
Shawnee EF4 2013 (day before the Moore EF5) was infact 2 tornadoes but isn't listed as 2,
the main EF4 (likely was a EF5 at this moment) started to moved north , appeared to start doing a loop , and died.
a second tornado going south for a few seconds then turned to go north east over the highway.
pretty much Smithville did one of these 2 options , but at a faster 60+ mph forward speed.
joshoctober16
Member
i think your talking about the wrong part of its life , there is a other loop / possible cycle AFTER it hit Smithville.
it was before it entered Alabama
zoom in in the loop or gap
joshoctober16
Member
i could see multiple reasons for Robinson to have a higher cycloidal rating.
1:smithville had true suction vortices while Robinson didn't had true vortices.
2:the Smithville cycloidal mark wasn't during one of the most impressive moments (however it was close to some)
3:robinson could of had a stronger 0 meter 3 second gust, while Smithville had stronger winds in 1 to 5 meters?
4:smithville could of had a stronger upward wind speed compared to its horizontal wind speed.
5:smithville could of had a stronger 1 second wind gust.
6:robinson could of had barely any vertical wind speed.
7:smithville could of had more debris to cause more damage compared to Robinson that only hit one house right before the impressive cycloidal marks.
we also need to remember when a cycloidal mark is by a suction vortex , it cant really calculate the wind speed of the sub vortex.
it cant calculate the 1-10 meter winds.
i don't think it can calculate the upwards wind speed of the tornado, some tornadoes barely have any upward velocity while some have super strong upward velocity.
Cullman 2011 is a good example of a tornado that had a stronger upward velocity then horizontal velocity.
i think you missed the part about it needed to have sped up to ~139mph in order for it to be one tornado
I take it that you've looked at the Smithville radar data yourself, and you're not just repeating what someone else has written? And that you're accounting for the degraded quality of the velocity data from Columbus at the time in question, and that the position of the debris ball is not consistent with this supposed occurance?
Kds86z
Member
I guess i can put this here.
You do realize that multiple vortices can translate very quickly around the boundaries of the parent circulation? It's one of the reasons they are very destructive. Consider a tornado moving 70 mph, that sub-vortex could also move 70 mph around the circulation and, for when the two velocities are aligned directionally, achieves a combined, ground relative speed of 140 mph.
He's referring to the claim of the pseudonymous Discord researcher that the couplet itself jumped forward as the tornado crossed the state line, and that it needed to travel 139 mph between locations to do so.
Looking at the radar data from Columbus AFB, this is not obvious at all to me. From the first image - which was taken at about the same time as the jink in the path the speed seems to be about 70 mph or so:
(4:39 min)
(4:38 min)
The pseudonym claims that the alleged jump was in '40 seconds'. Since there was no RaxPol present, the only way that could be found is if he was comparing one frame of the Columbus radar with the closest frame of the Birmingham radar, which is around 35 seconds behind (on the website I'm using it varies, but whatever) the Columbus radar. Problem is the location of the circulation on the Birmingham data is rather ambiguous due to the fairly long distance. The Columbus radar being very close also means that any tilt in the storm will come into play. Just eyeballing it, what could be perceived as the apparent centre on the Birmingham radar is always placed disproportionately far northeast for the time difference, so therefore I don't think the two are directly comparable, hence any speed measurement combining the two will be unreliable.
There is also nothing indicating a handoff at that time.
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that would probably be better discussed on the EF scale debate thread, just because of the rating and DOW measurements of Greenfield
Fujita’s reflectivity mosaic for the super outbreak at 0Z. Not high definition or exact by any means, but gives a good look at the aerial extent of the event. I’m sure the “squall line” was more filled in but you can even see some supercells in it. You can easily make out Convective Band 1 supercells in Georgia and the Tennessee/North Carolina border. The showers farther to the east were remnants of a stalled front from a previous system. The Laurel MS F3 supercell is also visible all by itself in southeastern Mississippi. Of course, the other supercells visible don’t need introductions.
I’ve found some really cool radar images and other tidbits from this event, do you all think they should go in this thread or should I just put all my findings in one individual thread?
I’ve found some really cool radar images and other tidbits from this event, do you all think they should go in this thread or should I just put all my findings in one individual thread?