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MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
Ok. Hold up. I’m putting some pieces together here.

All I’m going to say, is that suspect somebody has been making unfounded claims regarding the Prague, OK and Clinton, AR tornadoes for years. First off, I’ve searched thoroughly through documents trying to find any evidence about the oil tanks and alleged scouring associated with Prague-Iron Post, and found absolutely nothing. In fact, I’ve found no solid evidence of any kind of publication containing this information ever existing. Regarding Clinton, I remember someone sending me pictures of “ground scouring” from that event, which actually showed some mud puddles and water damage in a grassy field, along with moderate tree and vehicle damage.

Oh also a certain someone started a rumor about the Kellerville, TX tornado sweeping away a house so thoroughly, that that survey team missed it, while this actually happened near Arkansas City, KS during the Andover outbreak.

Sorry if this sounds confrontational, but this current thread is full of valuable and verifiable information, and I hope it stays that way.
The pickup truck being carried 20 miles by the Forgotten F5 came from the April 1998 Storm Data Publication but it was probably a typo or something.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
Also, I believe the 2008 Clinton tornado was not the strongest tornado recorded in February or the most EF/F5-worthy one. I believe the candidates for that claim go to Rockingham NC, Leeds AL, Caves Spring GA, Cagle GA from the 1884 Enigma Outbreak.
 

TH2002

Member
Messages
34
Location
California, United States
Special Affiliations
  1. SKYWARN® Volunteer
A little known tornado I figured was worth mentioning here is the September 25, 2013 Dagomys (Sochi), Russia tornado. Based on everything I've been able to gather, this tornado likely originated as a waterspout and moved ashore as a tornado. There were multiple waterspouts/tornadoes that day and a Russian-language news article describes how three tornadoes were reported in the area (though this appears to be the only waterspout that actually moved onshore, therefore becoming a true tornado). The same article describes how the tornado uprooted trees, tore roofs off of buildings and mangled vehicles. Very rough analysis of the available damage imagery indicates the tornado probably left damage of upper F1 or marginal F2 intensity.

Two photos of damage attatched, one from a Russian-language blog showing sections of roofing torn from a building. Second image is a screenshot from a YouTube video showing the damage in the immediate aftermath of the tornado showing trees and powerlines down as well as vehicles tossed.

Some impressive footage of the tornado on YouTube, the first video is where the screenshot is from and the second shows the tornado's appearance over the city from a distance:
 

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J-Rab

Member
Messages
42
Location
Hattiesburg Mississippi
This thread is terrific. It is no place for exaggeration, hyperbola, or any kind of mis-information, which would taint an otherwise wonderful thread. The posts here are a great way to learn about something that is of interest to us all. Wondering what is accurate and what isn’t would greatly take away from it.

Not saying that it is happening or anything, but it most definitely should not be.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
663
Location
Riverside, Ohio
I remember a user from the old threat with the name of "Cal" who would post stuff like this with the most deadpan and utmost sincerity, he almost derailed a couple of the threads before being kicked off (I think) by moderators. Hopefully he hasn't registered under a new name as well.
CAL made some unfounded, fantastical posts, but overall seemed like he had a decent head on his shoulders. He did a very interesting, albeit slightly hyperbolic survey of apparent violent damage at the Holly Springs Motorsports Park after the 2015 EF4.

The person I had in mind is who Andy mentioned, Bull Shark, who is responsible for a laundry list of unfounded rumors surrounding various tornado events among various forums. He’s highly scatterbrained, gets basic info confused with other events, and I suspect he’s made another sock puppet account judging by some of the above posts.
 
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Messages
554
Location
Missouri
Also, I believe the 2008 Clinton tornado was not the strongest tornado recorded in February or the most EF/F5-worthy one. I believe the candidates for that claim go to Rockingham NC, Leeds AL, Caves Spring GA, Cagle GA from the 1884 Enigma Outbreak.
If only we had damage photographs from that event.
That said, the most impressive February outbreak with damage photographs is the February 1971 Mississippi Delta event. No, I don't think any of the tornadoes were F5s but a couple were definitely F4s and both killed a large amount of people despite hitting only rural areas.
 

KoD

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1,196
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Huntsville, AL
I remember a user from the old threat with the name of "Cal" who would post stuff like this with the most deadpan and utmost sincerity, he almost derailed a couple of the threads before being kicked off (I think) by moderators. Hopefully he hasn't registered under a new name as well.
I've met him IRL a few times, very very kind and contagiously passionate about meteorology. He seems like a smart guy but he definitely had his "theories". I don't personally recall him derailing anything though, just expressing a different perspective. I also wasn't as appraised at historical discussion as y'all are. I don't have any criticisms to make but in person he was an extremely polite and pleasant guy.
I don't think he's had any infractions, just not as active here as much.
 
Messages
554
Location
Missouri
I've met him IRL a few times, very very kind and contagiously passionate about meteorology. He seems like a smart guy but he definitely had his "theories". I don't personally recall him derailing anything though, just expressing a different perspective. I also wasn't as appraised at historical discussion as y'all are. I don't have any criticisms to make but in person he was an extremely polite and pleasant guy.
I don't think he's had any infractions, just not as active here as much.
Ah, OK, I take back the stuff I said about him then.
He did seem to be more active on the older forums then the new ones, I've noticed.
 

pohnpei

Member
Messages
178
Location
shanghai
To this day, Spencer tornado 1998 was still the only case DOW scanned at a close range when a violent tornado WAS ABOUT TO hit a town.
It should be noticed that when a tornado was already hitting a town, the lofted debris can contaminate the scatter volumes of radar and also contribute to the absence of prominent convergent flow at low levels. So the velocity measured by radar at this time can be significantly lower than actual air motion. For example, Moore 2013 EF5 was only sampled 86m/s winds by TOKC at its peak which only showed 13% convergent pattern of its scan. So the data was useless for indicating its intensity.
Spencer tornado's article:
The highest 5-s average wind speed at each location on the grid revealed that a nearly 100-m-wide path between Third and Second Streets on the west side of the town experienced a 5-s average wind at or above 100 m s−1 (Fig. 8a). The highest 5-s average wind speed had a maximum of about 112 m s−1 on the western edge of town around Third Street. The highest 60-s average wind speed at each point in the town showed a 50-m swath across the south-central portion of the town between Second and Third Streets where this parameter reached a maximum of just over 80 m s−1
The data of Spencer tornado was invaluable beacuse it gives us a glimpse of what winds actually looks like for a certain damage. It should be noted that even without significant debris impact, winds measured by DOW was still only the mean winds of a radar resolution volume and can still be very different from the actual wind speeds.(typically the low bound of actual wind speed). There were people argue that winds inside tornado was lower at 10m compared with a several dozen meters above it, but it should be noted that tornados have tremendous radial flow below 10m which was unsampled by most of the measurement cases. There were already evidences that tornado winds can maximize below 10m in some cases.
There were enough DIs inside the town of Spencer and showed that none of these houses were swept clean despite relatively low quality of construction. There were significant debarking inside the town(exactly where DOW winds maximize) but hardly any badly mangled car that I can find.
Caculating from the Delta-V of Spencer tornado(maximize right before it hit the town) and transition speed, if Smithville EF5 2011 was just as strong as Spencer tornado, the corresponding ground realative winds would surpass 132 m/s easily(moving at about 29-30m/s). But it did far greater damage in far less time with no doubt. It was just unimaginable to me how strong Smithville was after learning Spencer's case.
16-03-26-026.png 15-58-46-046.jpg 15-58-38-038.jpg
 
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Messages
12
Location
Northern Europe
Is Casuarina Head "Bull Shark" from the old TalkWeather?
Yes, indeed, and I also went by the monikers Ground Scouring and snowflake22 on both the original and revived American Weather fora. At no point under my latest iteration did I present rumours as fact, but merely noted that I was reiterating them to the best of my recollection(s), while not presenting them outright as “factual.” Obscure reports do tend to fascinate me, as always, and in this sense I bear some sense of kinship with CAL, although, unlike him, I do have high-functioning autism that muddles the link between the left and right hemispheres, hence the “scatterbrained,” impressionistic vibe, if not nature, of my otherwise highly detailed contributions. Sometimes I can engage in superficially technical matters, on a broad scale, so long as I corral my left hemisphere effectively.
CAL made some unfounded, fantastical posts, but overall seemed like he had a decent head on his shoulders. He did a very interesting, albeit slightly hyperbolic survey of apparent violent damage at the Holly Springs Motorsports Park after the 2015 EF4.

The person I had in mind is who Andy mentioned, Bull Shark, who is responsible for a laundry list of unfounded rumours surrounding various tornado events among various forums. He’s highly scatterbrained, gets basic info confused with other events, and I suspect he’s made another sock puppet account judging by some of the above posts.
See above.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
Speaking of Holly Springs, the damage at the motor park was actually extremely impressive and probably at least HE EF4 in intensity if the right DIs were present. The surveyor said it was the most impressive damage he had seen in 24 years. Two cinder-block restrooms were swept clean with all plumbing being removed, multiple large vehicles were moved more than 220 yards, trees including juvenile southern pines and smaller vegetation was completely stripped and partially debarked and several inches of topsoil was scoured. You can read more extreme damage cases here: https://www.tornadotalk.com/holly-springs-ashland-ms-ef4-tornado-december-23-2015/
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
I believe the NWS misclassified a tornado as a microburst in 2010 and it occurred in West Yellowstone MT. The damage occurred in a narrow SW-NE swath, the violent winds did not last long (only a few seconds to a minute), numerous people reported seeing a funnel cloud, videos show strong rotation in the cloud base shortly before the event begin, radar data shows broad rotation high up in the storm and a nearby weather station recorded a sudden drop in pressure usually associated with a mesocyclone. It seems that a brief EF0-EF1 touchdown was responsible for the damage vs a microburst.
Screenshot_2021-02-23 west yellowstone aug 28 2010 storm.png
MEHS2108.jpg https://www.bozemandailychronicle.c...cle_44cd4afe-b31a-11df-b16e-001cc4c03286.html
Screenshot_2021-02-23 MesoWest Surface Weather Maps.png
 
Messages
554
Location
Missouri
I believe the NWS misclassified a tornado as a microburst in 2010 and it occurred in West Yellowstone MT. The damage occurred in a narrow SW-NE swath, the violent winds did not last long (only a few seconds to a minute), numerous people reported seeing a funnel cloud, videos show strong rotation in the cloud base shortly before the event begin, radar data shows broad rotation high up in the storm and a nearby weather station recorded a sudden drop in pressure usually associated with a mesocyclone. It seems that a brief EF0-EF1 touchdown was responsible for the damage vs a microburst.
View attachment 6126
View attachment 6127 https://www.bozemandailychronicle.c...cle_44cd4afe-b31a-11df-b16e-001cc4c03286.html
View attachment 6128
This is interesting, given the 1987 Yellowstone Tornado that occurred nearby this area. I've seen some speculation that the 1987 event was also a downburst, or the tornado had a much shorter path length then originally documented and the majority of the damage was actually downburst damage. I don't buy much of that but figured I might as well mention it, given the similarities with this event in terms of location and being a possible mixture of downburst and tornado. Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting something I read.
 

TH2002

Member
Messages
34
Location
California, United States
Special Affiliations
  1. SKYWARN® Volunteer
While we're on the topic of mountain tornadoes, on August 11,1993 an F3 (possibly F4) tornado caused impressive damage at elevations ranging from roughly 8,000 to almost 12,000 feet in the High Uintas Wilderness, Utah. Excellent article on Tornado Talk: https://www.tornadotalk.com/high-uintas-wilderness-ut-f3-tornado-august-11-1993/

Another one of arguably the most unique tornadoes in recent history formed over the Weston Pass Fire in Colorado on July 5, 2018. Elevation almost 10,000 feet. Reports say the tornado caused "no damage" and I can't find any information on an EF rating though this video seems to prove otherwise:

Another video:
 
Messages
554
Location
Missouri
While we're on the topic of mountain tornadoes, on August 11,1993 an F3 (possibly F4) tornado caused impressive damage at elevations ranging from roughly 8,000 to almost 12,000 feet in the High Uintas Wilderness, Utah. Excellent article on Tornado Talk: https://www.tornadotalk.com/high-uintas-wilderness-ut-f3-tornado-august-11-1993/

Another one of arguably the most unique tornadoes in recent history formed over the Weston Pass Fire in Colorado on July 5, 2018. Elevation almost 10,000 feet. Reports say the tornado caused "no damage" and I can't find any information on an EF rating though this video seems to prove otherwise:

Another video:
This article is about what is, to the best of my knowledge, the highest confirmed tornado in the United States. It occurred in the Rockwell Pass area of Sequoia National Park, California at an elevation of 12,156 feet.



This article is about a tornado in Bolivia that holds the record for being the highest elevation of any tornado in the Americas and perhaps the world: https://www.washingtonpost.com/weat...igher-altitude-than-any-record-united-states/
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
663
Location
Riverside, Ohio
I believe the NWS misclassified a tornado as a microburst in 2010 and it occurred in West Yellowstone MT. The damage occurred in a narrow SW-NE swath, the violent winds did not last long (only a few seconds to a minute), numerous people reported seeing a funnel cloud, videos show strong rotation in the cloud base shortly before the event begin, radar data shows broad rotation high up in the storm and a nearby weather station recorded a sudden drop in pressure usually associated with a mesocyclone. It seems that a brief EF0-EF1 touchdown was responsible for the damage vs a microburst.
View attachment 6126
View attachment 6127 https://www.bozemandailychronicle.c...cle_44cd4afe-b31a-11df-b16e-001cc4c03286.html
View attachment 6128
Another one that was likely incorrectly classified was the Athens, OH “downburst” of September 2010. It happened on the same day as the Reedsville, OH/Bellville, WV EF3 and the fatal NYC EF1. YouTube of videos of the event show a clearly rotating broad funnel. The damage in the area had evidence of convergent winds too, but was still classified as a downburst. I’m almost certain that it was a tornado of high-end EF1 to EF2 strength.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
This is interesting, given the 1987 Yellowstone Tornado that occurred nearby this area. I've seen some speculation that the 1987 event was also a downburst, or the tornado had a much shorter path length then originally documented and the majority of the damage was actually downburst damage. I don't buy much of that but figured I might as well mention it, given the similarities with this event in terms of location and being a possible mixture of downburst and tornado. Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting something I read.
Downbursts don’t debark trees or scour topsoil and I don’t buy the hypothesis that most or all of the 1987 event was a downburst.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
207
Location
Apple Valley, MN
Another tornado that got misclassified as a downburst was the 10/14/2003 Cranberry-Fox Run PA event. Debris was carried five miles, radar showed rotation, trees fell in a pattern indicative of a tornado, baskets were strewn across the parking lot and a mailbox was lifted from the front of a nearby store and blown to the rear of the lot, damage occurred in a narrow swath, a large construction trailer was rolled through a parking lot and into a store and debris was wrapped around decks. Downbursts don't carry debris 5 miles and the other contextual evidence suggests that this was a tornado and possibly a significant one as several homes reportedly lost roofs and walls.
 

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