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gangstonc

Member
Messages
2,718
Location
Meridianville
Yeah this is a big time screw up if houses have actually been missed during the ground survey.

I have noticed that FWD has done a few surveys that seem kind of half-baked and incomplete. One that comes to mind was one of the tornadoes from the December 26, 2015 outbreak. Each DAT damage point for one of the tracks was not only suspiciously low-balled, but clearly photographed through a car window, with some photos showing motion blur. This suggests that the survey was done by driving a car through the damage path, snapping a few pics, and calling it done. That is not ok.
I would say most surveys miss homes at some point for large/long track tornadoes. It’s just too much to do for a small crew.
 

pohnpei

Member
Messages
178
Location
shanghai
I would say most surveys miss homes at some point for large/long track tornadoes. It’s just too much to do for a small crew.
I know that there were more than 4000 houses had been given its rating for Tuscaloosa tornado and Joplin tornado in 2011. And for Tuscaloosa event, there were TONS of other tornados need to be surveyed by NWS Briminham and they overall did a great job. For Canton TX EF3, none of any of these destroyed houses present here had ever been rated and also there was only a very small portion of houses had been rated for Canton EF4 tornado.
 

pohnpei

Member
Messages
178
Location
shanghai
Here shows some asphalt damage of 2011 Canton Lake EF3 tornado. This tornado was capable of doing very impressive tree damage in some location and was for sure a violent tornado. But in my opinion, the asphalt damage here was not very supportive based on the contexual damage. There was an article of Jarrell tornado mentioned that asphalt damage was mainly due to the air pressure difference between above and below level of asphalt. The asphalt damage of Jarrell, Hackleburg, Chickasha were fully supportive based on its contexual damage like ground sevevely scoured, trees mowed to ground level and largely to completely debarked, houses was completely destroyed nearby etc.
Trees near the asphalt damage of Canton Lake tornado was not bent, even leaves were not blown away at all. There was also likely debris impact showed on the ground indicate that the asphalt damage here was very different from Jarrell, Hackleburg, Chickasha. It was mainly impact by debris or something and had no capability to indicate violent wind at this place.
QQ图片20210220220654.jpg QQ图片20210220220618.jpg QQ图片20210220220641.jpg QQ图片20210220220715.jpg QQ图片20210220220711.jpg QQ图片20210220220707.jpg QQ图片20210220220701.jpg
 
Messages
11
Location
Northern Europe
A particularly interesting outbreak (or sequence) occurred on 29–30 May 1909. According to Significant Tornadoes, this period featured at least eight F3+ tornadoes, including two confirmed F4s; at least two other events likely reached F4+ intensity. What is interesting about this event is that it likely generated violent tornadoes from Cavalier County, ND, southward to Brown County, TX. The tornado in Cavalier County struck Langdon, ND, and is assigned an F3 rating in Significant Tornadoes, but based on photographic evidence it likely reached F4+ status, based on debarked and/or stubbed trees behind flattened structures. At least one other tornado, near Wetumka, OK, was “probably” F4, according to Significant Tornadoes. The two confirmed F4s killed six people near Micawber, OK, and thirty-four in or near Zephyr, TX, respectively. The latter event occurred around 1:15 a.m. CDT (06:15 UTC) and produced a narrow but remarkably intense swath of damage through the southeastern side of Zephyr in Brown County, TX. Three other tornadoes—including two F3s—occurred along the U.S.–Canada border in ND, and an F3 tornado also struck the northern side of Dexter, KS. ESRL’s reanalysis indicates that a negatively tilted mid-level shortwave occurred over the High Plains during 29–30 May and that pronounced dry-line evidently bulged eastward at 850 mb during the afternoon and evening of 29 May.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
203
Location
Apple Valley, MN
Yeah, I haven't been able to find any pictures of damage higher than F2; of course that doesn't mean there wasn't F3 damage, just that it's hard to find photographs of it. Of course, it occurred in 1972 and tornado ratings were in their infancy, it's likely it would be rated lower nowadays.
Grazulis gives the 1972 Vancouver tornado an F2 rating as he said that no homes lost any walls despite the widespread roof damage.
 
Messages
548
Location
Missouri
Amite-Purvis F4, April 24 1908

On Friday, April 24, 1908 the eighth deadliest tornado in American history tore a path from tiny Weiss, Louisiana in Livingston Parish (just Northeast of the Denham Springs suburb of Baton Rouge) to just Southeast of Richton, Mississippi in Perry County. In between it killed at least 143 people and injured another 770 while ripping a sometimes 2 mile wide gash approximately 155 miles through the lush South Louisiana/Mississippi countryside. This tornado (or tornado family) has been posthumously rated F4, and is one of particular interest to me because I am fascinated by Dixie Alley tornadoes, and because Purvis is just a few minutes drive from my house.

This tornado was part of a much larger outbreak that dropped tornadoes from South Dakota through Georgia over a 3 day period. South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Texas and Arkansas all had tornadoes on April 23rd, with Pender, Nebraska having the outbreak’s only F5.

On the next day, the 24th, tornadoes touched down in Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. There were 3 other notable F4’s that day:

  • One touched down in Louisiana, intensified greatly in Concordia Parish, and crossed the Mississippi River just North of Natchez in a path not that different from the Great Natchez tornado of 1840. This tornado struck at about 5:00 in the morning and killed at least 91 and injured at least 400 more. As usual in the early 1900’s, the death/injuries were probably substantially higher than listed.
  • One struck just North of Birmingham Alabama, starting just Southwest of the Dora/Bergens area and finally lifted around 105 miles later, just Northeast of Rainsville/Sylvania, killing at least 35 and injuring at least 188. This F4 was 103 years and 3 days prior to the 2011 Rainsville F5 which ravaged much of that same area.
  • And one that touched down in Bluffton Alabama (in the Piedmont corridor that sees so many tornadoes) and crossed over into Georgia, killing 11 (1 in Alabama) and injuring 50.

The 25th saw at least seven more tornadoes in Georgia, with the most intense being an F3 that struck Pine Mountain, killing 10. Notably, an F2 struck downtown Atlanta (one of only two to ever do so) that day, hitting Central Avenue but there were no fatalities.

The Supercell that formed the Amite/Purvis tornado was formed in connection with a “well developed and very energetic cyclone” centered near Concordia Kansas, according to W.S. Belden, in The Monthly Weather Review. Something that I found interesting that he said about the weather of April 24th, is: “The morning weather map of April 24 bore a striking resemblance to the morning map of March 2, 1906, the date of the Meridian, Miss., tornado in which 23 people were killed.” That March 1906 Meridian tornado did much destruction to the downtown area, knocking whole brick buildings to the ground.

Here is the link to that Journal entry on the April 24 Mississippi tornadoes where he talks about all of the storms in the state that day.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/downloadpdf/journals/mwre/36/5/1520-0493_1908_36_132_tima_2_0_co_2.pdf

The tornado did its worst damage to people and property in Amite, LA and in Purvis, MS, both of which were struck directly. Twenty-nine people were killed in Amite, where the damage path was said to have been two miles wide (which is about the width of the whole town).

View attachment 6067


After destroying Amite, the destructive tornado killed a few people going through the very rural areas between Amite and Purvis. Then, at 2:13 PM, the funnel plowed into Purvis destroying over 90% of all the buildings in the town and killing 47 people.

View attachment 6068

View attachment 6069

View attachment 6070


View attachment 6074

Just after leaving Purvis, the whirling mass bore down on a group of railroad workers who saw the tornado and took shelter in some boxcars. The train was hit and the boxcars were thrown 150 feet and disintegrated upon impact, killing all the workers.

Then, deadly until the very end of its life, the tornado killed several people just outside of Richton before picking back up into the supercell and ending its rampage.

In Purvis, all communications had been cut, with no way to get help from neighboring communities. A city worker took the Sheriff’s horse and rode the 10 miles to Hattiesburg to get help. He stopped in Richburg and wired to Hattiesburg about the disaster. The Hattiesburg Mayor, J.D. Donald sent a train with physicians and supplies to Purvis right away.

Today, in Purvis, you can find a sign and a plaque about the death and destruction wrought by that great storm, and if you go to watch a Purvis High School football game, you’ll notice that they are called “The Purvis Tornadoes”... a moniker that school has carried since April 24th, 1908.
View attachment 6076



View attachment 6071
View attachment 6072
Ah yes, the 1908 Dixie Outbreak, you beat me to posting stuff about it. This is another one of those outbreaks where it's obvious many of the photographs were taken post-clean up and it is difficult to find photographs of the hardest hit areas. What's interesting is how far South in LA some of the tornadoes were, and one of the tornadoes of that outbreak passed just north of Vidalia, LA and Natchez, MS on a path that is nearly identical to that of the 1840 Great Natchez tornado.


This link has some photos of damage from the Bergens/Albertville, Al tornado (or family):


Gendisasters article on this outbreak: http://www.gendisasters.com/alabama/6837/towns-la-ms-al-tornado-destruction-apr-1908
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
663
Location
Riverside, Ohio
Grazulis gives the 1972 Vancouver tornado an F2 rating as he said that no homes lost any walls despite the widespread roof damage.
This might be controversial, but I think Grazulis and others are a little too dismissive of the 1972 Vancouver tornado. I certainly remember seeing photographs of homes that sustained exterior wall collapse from this tornado. These first two photos show damage to homes in Vancouver that is consistent with recent tornadoes that have been given a low end/140 MPH EF3 rating. Also, the debris pattern near the elementary school was fairly impressive and consistent with an intense tornado, with even a little bit of wind-rowing. The intensity of the damage from the 1972 Vancouver tornado, was in my opinion, not too different from events like Alexandria, LA 12/16/2019 or Onalaska, TX 04/22/2020. Just my two cents.
WYmImVt.jpg

DkA6gCT.jpg

wqgUUsp.jpg

YyLhiu8.jpg


Also, I once had a black and white photo of the Vancouver tornado itself saved, but now I can't find it unfortunately. It was a large, ragged-looking stovepipe type tornado.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
203
Location
Apple Valley, MN
This might be controversial, but I think Grazulis and others are a little too dismissive of the 1972 Vancouver tornado. I certainly remember seeing photographs of homes that sustained exterior wall collapse from this tornado. These first two photos show damage to homes in Vancouver that is consistent with recent tornadoes that have been given a low end/140 MPH EF3 rating. Also, the debris pattern near the elementary school was fairly impressive and consistent with an intense tornado, with even a little bit of wind-rowing. The intensity of the damage from the 1972 Vancouver tornado, was in my opinion, not too different from events like Alexandria, LA 12/16/2019 or Onalaska, TX 04/22/2020. Just my two cents.
WYmImVt.jpg

DkA6gCT.jpg

wqgUUsp.jpg

YyLhiu8.jpg


Also, I once had a black and white photo of the Vancouver tornado itself saved, but now I can't find it unfortunately. It was a large, ragged-looking stovepipe type tornado.
Wow I've never seen these damage photographs before, maybe it did actually achieve low-end F3 intensity or high-end F2 intensity.
 
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Messages
548
Location
Missouri
This might be controversial, but I think Grazulis and others are a little too dismissive of the 1972 Vancouver tornado. I certainly remember seeing photographs of homes that sustained exterior wall collapse from this tornado. These first two photos show damage to homes in Vancouver that is consistent with recent tornadoes that have been given a low end/140 MPH EF3 rating. Also, the debris pattern near the elementary school was fairly impressive and consistent with an intense tornado, with even a little bit of wind-rowing. The intensity of the damage from the 1972 Vancouver tornado, was in my opinion, not too different from events like Alexandria, LA 12/16/2019 or Onalaska, TX 04/22/2020. Just my two cents.
WYmImVt.jpg

DkA6gCT.jpg

wqgUUsp.jpg

YyLhiu8.jpg


Also, I once had a black and white photo of the Vancouver tornado itself saved, but now I can't find it unfortunately. It was a large, ragged-looking stovepipe type tornado.
On the older thread someone posted a picture of an old-fashioned TV set with a newsreel of a tornado with this appearance and supposedly it was a photo of this tornado but the uploader wasn't sure. That's all I remember, wish I could find that pic again.
 

MNTornadoGuy

Member
Messages
203
Location
Apple Valley, MN
This might be controversial, but I think Grazulis and others are a little too dismissive of the 1972 Vancouver tornado. I certainly remember seeing photographs of homes that sustained exterior wall collapse from this tornado. These first two photos show damage to homes in Vancouver that is consistent with recent tornadoes that have been given a low end/140 MPH EF3 rating. Also, the debris pattern near the elementary school was fairly impressive and consistent with an intense tornado, with even a little bit of wind-rowing. The intensity of the damage from the 1972 Vancouver tornado, was in my opinion, not too different from events like Alexandria, LA 12/16/2019 or Onalaska, TX 04/22/2020. Just my two cents.
WYmImVt.jpg

DkA6gCT.jpg

wqgUUsp.jpg

YyLhiu8.jpg


Also, I once had a black and white photo of the Vancouver tornado itself saved, but now I can't find it unfortunately. It was a large, ragged-looking stovepipe type tornado.
View attachment 6113
Here is another view of the home in the second photograph. It looks less intense now and seems to be mid-F2 to minimal F3 in intensity.
 

J-Rab

Member
Messages
42
Location
Hattiesburg Mississippi
Ah yes, the 1908 Dixie Outbreak, you beat me to posting stuff about it. This is another one of those outbreaks where it's obvious many of the photographs were taken post-clean up and it is difficult to find photographs of the hardest hit areas. What's interesting is how far South in LA some of the tornadoes were, and one of the tornadoes of that outbreak passed just north of Vidalia, LA and Natchez, MS on a path that is nearly identical to that of the 1840 Great Natchez tornado.


This link has some photos of damage from the Bergens/Albertville, Al tornado (or family):


Gendisasters article on this outbreak: http://www.gendisasters.com/alabama/6837/towns-la-ms-al-tornado-destruction-apr-1908
Yeah, I mentioned that it went very close to the track of the 1840 Natchez tornado, although the 1908 storm started further back in Louisiana and crossed the river a little further north, I believe.

It was also a morning outbreak in Mississippi, although it was in the afternoon for Alabama. It started in MS at 2:30 AM with the first tornado in the Northwestern corner of the state with one occurred roughly every 70 miles south of the previous tornado. There were likely some tornadoes that went unreported, but the major ones were spaced out pretty evenly.

The Vidalia/Natchez tornado started at about 5:00 AM and the Amite/Purvis tornado began around Noon, reaching Purvis a little after 2:00 PM.

For Alabama, it began shortly after in Dora/Bergens at a little before 3:00 PM because it is so much further North than Purvis.

There is an interesting write up on the Dora storm by W.F. Lehman in the Monthly Weather Review. He went to the area and looked into if the elevation helped Dora escape with less destruction than Bergen.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/downlo...6/5/1520-0493_1908_36_134_tadaba_2_0_co_2.pdf

I need to try to find something on the 1906 Meridian MS tornado that had such a similar setup to the 1908 outbreak.
 

akt1985

Member
Messages
613
Location
Madison, Alabama
Today is the 50th anniversary of the Mississippi Delta Tornado Outbreak. Despite killing over 120 people in Mississippi and Louisiana, there is not as much information about this event as other outbreaks. February 21, 1971 also brought to Louisiana its first and only official F5 tornado to date.
 

Robinson lee

Member
Messages
23
Location
tianjin
This is April 27, 2011, new Wren, MS Ef3 tornado destroyed, this tornado and Smithville EF5 are produced by the same supercell. To some extent, the storm is similar to Smithville EF5 in shape, small core, obvious surface erosion, but little information. This is some of the damage I can find, which can indicate that this is the damage of high-end Ef3 or ef4, but I don't have more information about the damage of Ef3 tornado. If someone has more information, thank you for sending some
 

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Equus

Member
Messages
1,942
Location
Saragossa, AL
That was definitely stronger at peak than officially rated. Probably not Smithville level but the level of ground scarring and vegetation damage makes it obvious it very likely had violent potential
 
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Messages
11
Location
Northern Europe
Today is the 50th anniversary of the Mississippi Delta Tornado Outbreak. Despite killing over 120 people in Mississippi and Louisiana, there is not as much information about this event as other outbreaks. February 21, 1971 also brought to Louisiana its first and only official F5 tornado to date.
Here is another thread about this event.

As an aside, FL’s deadliest tornado outbreak occurred twenty-three years ago to date. The Kissimmee F3 was arguably a low-end F4.
 
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buckeye05

Member
Messages
663
Location
Riverside, Ohio
For the list, I relied on a blend of factors, including contextual DIs, taking into account time and place, while relying on publications, videos, and still photography from various sources. For example, a highly visible tornado that occurred during broad daylight on the Great Plains yet still produced a relatively high death toll and/or disproportionately severe injuries is automatically a candidate for “most violent,” provided other context is available and confirmed via multiple, reputable sources. The 1936 Tupelo (F5) tornado can also be considered quite violent, despite occurring after dark and striking poor African-American communities in the segregationist Deep South, because, among other things, it mainly impacted single-family homes outside the business district yet killed more people than the slower-moving Gainesville, GA, (F4) tornado, which struck densely inhabited, multi-story, downtown structures a day later, at the start of the morning workday, in fact.

The Chapman, KS, tornado of 25 May 2016 could conceivably belong to this list, along with the Rocksprings, TX, tornado of 12 April 1927, the massive F5 tornado family in KS on 7 May 1927, and the Tianjin tornado of 29 August 1969. The Chapman tornado, as mentioned, produced very intense ground scouring and damage to sizeable vehicles, while the Rocksprings and KS tornadoes in 1927 apparently reduced numerous, large, mature trees to debarked stubs, while leaving behind very little debris on empty homesites. The Tianjin tornado also debarked and denuded entire trees and snapped off steel-and-concrete rebars in a densely populated industrial zone. As far as I know, only the Brandenburg, Parkersburg, and Joplin tornadoes come remotely close to this level of damage, given that these tornadoes either toppled or snapped poured concrete basement walls. The Bakersfield Valley, Hackleburg, and Smithfield tornadoes did manage to break apart concrete surfaces and/or foundations in general, as far as I know.

I also put the Atkins–Clinton–Zion tornado on the list because the damage to the boat factory is exceptional, matched only by similar industrial damage in the Jackson–Forkville, San Justo, Guin, Niles–Wheatland, Edmonton, and Roanoke tornadoes. (Tianjin itself is on another level.) Additionally, the Atkins–Clinton–Zion tornado also snapped and partly debarked numerous, mature hardwoods only a few feet above ground level, while reducing large structures north of Clinton to bare slabs and trailers to chassis, with practically no debris left on foundations in some areas. I recall an old thread on American Weather that mentioned the slabbed foundations being visible in an aerial that unfortunately has long since vanished from the Web. If any tornado in February deserves to be rated EF5, it’s probably the Clinton tornado from Super Tuesday (2008), given that both Significant Tornadoes and NWS JAN only found F4 damage in LA and MS from the “official” F5 of 21 February 1971. That F5 should be downgraded and replaced by Clinton, in my view.

The Udall, Hudsonville, Lake Pleasant/Coldwater Lake #1, and Lebanon–Sheridan tornadoes each produced extensive ground scouring and finely granulated debris, whereas the other “potential” F5s from Palm Sunday (1965) did not leave behind those indicators. The first Coldwater Lake tornado on Palm Sunday apparently produced some very intense damage to vehicles as well. This is the same long-tracked tornado that became a massive wedge over southern MI and produced a wind gust of 131 knots (151 mph) at Tecumseh. The second long-tracker that followed it was apparently not as intense as the first and caused somewhat fewer casualties, according to Significant Tornadoes. The Prague–Iron Post–Sapulpa tornado, according to my recollection, apparently removed half a foot of topsoil from hillsides, “stripped” them of “all vegetation,” and tossed oil tanks an unspecified distance over rural areas of the Cross Timbers in northeastern OK, per an old post that I recall by the SPC’s Richard Thompson on American Weather, long since taken down.
Ok. Hold up. I’m putting some pieces together here.

All I’m going to say, is that suspect somebody has been making unfounded claims regarding the Prague, OK and Clinton, AR tornadoes for years. First off, I’ve searched thoroughly through documents trying to find any evidence about the oil tanks and alleged scouring associated with Prague-Iron Post, and found absolutely nothing. In fact, I’ve found no solid evidence of any kind of publication containing this information ever existing. Regarding Clinton, I remember someone sending me pictures of “ground scouring” from that event, which actually showed some mud puddles and water damage in a grassy field, along with moderate tree and vehicle damage.

Oh also a certain someone started a rumor about the Kellerville, TX tornado sweeping away a house so thoroughly, that that survey team missed it, while this actually happened near Arkansas City, KS during the Andover outbreak.

Sorry if this sounds confrontational, but this current thread is full of valuable and verifiable information, and I hope it stays that way.
 
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