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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

I think we're approaching a point where we realize it's both much easier and more effective to rate based on standardized things like train cars and compact vehicles, versus houses, in which no two are the same. I think we also may have overrated the strength of houses in general and underrated the strength of vehicles.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Here's some more examples of 200 mph+ winds. Keep in mind, the study found there was a 0% chance sub 200 mph winds could throw a truck 80-100 meters.

Lake Martin, AL 2011

View attachment 46978

Bridgeport, AL 2011 threw a semi truck over 100 yards

View attachment 46979

Lawrence, AL 2008

View attachment 46980

Cullman, AL 2011
View attachment 46982

Ringgold, GA 2011 every car from these residences was thrown with some traveling at least 110 yards

View attachment 46981

Little Rock, AR 2011 here's a good before and after of a pickup and tree (with rootball) that were thrown

View attachment 46983View attachment 46984
Click to expand...
I would argue that, although 200mph windspeeds are likely, its more than likely that it takes winds well in excess of 200mph to actually generate "ef level" 200 mph damage.
 
Tanner said:
There was also homes swept off their foundations with extreme contextual damage to trees, but the homes lacked proper anchoring (ditto). The tanker cars added confidence and made up for the improper structure. This is something that is similar to the El Reno EF5 from 2011, as no EF5 home damage occured, but the oil rig added confidence to the upgrade.
Click to expand...
This is so good it calls for a drink!
Central Ohio Wx said:
My list of strongest tornadoes this year, then:
  • Enderlin (obviously)
  • Diaz (honestly overrated, contextuals don't support a rating higher than 170-180)
  • London
  • Tylertown (if any other tornado deserved 190, it'd be this one, not Marion)
  • Bakersfield
Click to expand...
I'll keep defending Marion. It destroyed a well built if not perfectly built house and did solid tree damage nearby. EF4.
 
N0mz said:
Yeah I think its definitely a little overrated as an ef4-190, but it was a solid ef4 for sure
Click to expand...
Travel GIF by Expedia
 
Compiling a list with current ratings for reference (no particular order) for upgrades:

1. Matador TX (2023, EF3)
2. Chickasha OK (2011, EF4)
3. Goldsby OK (2011, EF4)
4. Tuscaloosa AL (2011, EF4)
5. Vilonia AR (2014, EF4)
6. Rolling Fork MS (2023, EF4)
7. Mayfield KY (2021, EF4)
8. Bowling Green KY (2021, EF3)
9. El Reno OK (2013, EF3)
10. Delmont SD (2015, EF2)
11. Westminster TX (2006, F3)
12. Harper KS (2004, F4)
13. Bassfield MS (2020, EF4)
14. New Wren MS (2011, EF3)
15. Canton TX (2017, EF3)
16. Bartow Co. GA (2011, EF3)
17. Rochelle IL (2015, EF4)
18. Chapman KS (2016, EF4)
19. Monson MA (2011, EF3)
20. Newbern TN (2006, F3)
21. Marmaduke AR (2006, F3)
22. Robinson IL (2023, EF3)

Downgrades:

1. Newnan GA (2021, EF4)
2. Moville IA (2013, EF4)
 
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andyhb said:
Compiling a list with current ratings for reference (no particular order) for upgrades:

1. Matador TX (2023, EF3)
2. Chickasha OK (2011, EF4)
3. Goldsby OK (2011, EF4)
4. Tuscaloosa AL (2011, EF4)
5. Vilonia AR (2014, EF4)
6. Rolling Fork MS (2023, EF4)
7. Mayfield KY (2021, EF4)
8. Bowling Green KY (2021, EF3)
9. El Reno OK (2013, EF3)
10. Delmont SD (2015, EF2)
11. Westminster TX (2006, F3)
12. Harper KS (2004, F4)
13. Bassfield MS (2020, EF4)
14. New Wren MS (2011, EF3)
15. Canton TX (2017, EF3)
16. Bartow Co. GA (2011, EF3)

Downgrades:

1. Newnan GA (2021, EF4)
2. Moville IA (2013, EF4)
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what's controversial about Moville 2013's rating? I haven't really heard too much about it.

If that were to be downgraded, that would increase Iowa's nearly 9-year gap of violent tornadoes between Moville and Winterset to 11 years (back to Pocahontas 2011, which was a satellite tornado of a larger one that was rated EF3!).
 
Kds86z said:
Click to expand...

People were jumping the gun to call this instance an EF5 indicator as well and I wanted to point out how much of a stretch that was. For one, the contextual near that train were nowhere near as impressive as the enderlin trains contextual. Maximum damage in that area realistically is fine at high end EF3. But we can still look at other instances from Mayfield.
 
andyhb said:
Compiling a list with current ratings for reference (no particular order) for upgrades:

1. Matador TX (2023, EF3)
2. Chickasha OK (2011, EF4)
3. Goldsby OK (2011, EF4)
4. Tuscaloosa AL (2011, EF4)
5. Vilonia AR (2014, EF4)
6. Rolling Fork MS (2023, EF4)
7. Mayfield KY (2021, EF4)
8. Bowling Green KY (2021, EF3)
9. El Reno OK (2013, EF3)
10. Delmont SD (2015, EF2)
11. Westminster TX (2006, F3)
12. Harper KS (2004, F4)
13. Bassfield MS (2020, EF4)
14. New Wren MS (2011, EF3)
15. Canton TX (2017, EF3)
16. Bartow Co. GA (2011, EF3)

Downgrades:

1. Newnan GA (2021, EF4)
2. Moville IA (2013, EF4)
Click to expand...
Rochelle IL, Washington IL (both ef4). Springfield EF3 2011is a personal pick
 
There might be enough info here to make a calculation on the Tuscaloosa Railroad Bridge. Either way, I found some really detailed pics of it.

The bridge was 564 feet long and rose 120 feet above the streambed.

The one that needs looked as weighed 34 tons and was rotated and thrown approximately 100 feet straight up hill. I believe it's the shortest one on the far right.

Here's the before and after
1759869808703.png
1759869841653.png

Here's as many angles as I can get of it.

1759869909100.png
1759870080353.png
1759870121090.png
1759870186436.png
1759870289352.png
1759870454067.png

Based on these photos it looks like the trestle was probably 40 feet tall. Assuming the 4 outer steel columns are a foot wide that'd make the starting surface area about 640 square feet. Not sure how to calculate all the inner beams and cross sections. Probably can just do a rough estimate and doesn't have to be too precise. I wonder what forces were required to loft it that far without even considering the concrete pilings it was anchored to.

Another interesting tidbit about this area:

"More than 600 feet of steel track was lost, much of which was left warped and trailing into the forest. Kevin Laws, the Science and Operations Officer at the NWS in Birmingham, stated in episode 797 of the Weather Brains podcast that 'I've never seen railroad tracks that were bent into big U-shapes. They were actually touching end to end ... the train ties, the wood pieces that go under the track ... they were being dug up out of the ground and slung fifteen miles away, that's just incredible.' "
1759870362225.png
1759870375200.png
 
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Grand Poo Bah said:
There might be enough info here to make a calculation on the Tuscaloosa Railroad Bridge. Either way, I found some really detailed pics of it.

The bridge was 564 feet long and rose 120 feet above the streambed.

The one that needs looked as weighed 34 tons and was rotated and thrown approximately 100 feet straight up hill. I believe it's the shortest one on the far right.

Here's the before and after
View attachment 46985
View attachment 46986

Here's as many angles as I can get of it.

View attachment 46987
View attachment 46988
View attachment 46989
View attachment 46990
View attachment 46991
View attachment 46994

Based on these photos it looks like the trestle was probably 40 feet tall. Assuming the 4 outer steel columns are a foot wide that'd make the starting surface area about 640 square feet. Not sure how to calculate all the inner beams and cross sections. Probably can just do a rough estimate and doesn't have to be too precise. I wonder what forces were required to loft it that far without even considering the concrete pilings it was anchored to.

Another interesting tidbit about this area:

"More than 600 feet of steel track was lost, much of which was left warped
and trailing into the forest. Kevin Laws, the Science and Operations Officer
at the NWS in Birmingham, stated in episode 797 of the Weather Brains
podcast that 'I've never seen railroad tracks that were bent into big U-
shapes. They were actually touching end to end ... the train ties, the wood
pieces that go under the track ... they were being dug up out of the ground
and slung fifteen miles away, that's just incredible.' "
View attachment 46992
View attachment 46993
Click to expand...
totally forgot that the bridge was a train tack type , guess Tuscaloosa was a other train track bender.

however tuscaloosa did throw or rolled train cars the same distance as enderlin , however they were empty but weigh over 35+ tones
1759871930567.png
 
ColdFront said:
Interesting diversity of thought on last night’s WeatherBrains discussing the Enderlin tornado. Rick Smith (NWS Norman Warning Coordinator) said his office, along with Paducah, Birmingham, and Jackson MS were consulted late in the process by Grand Forks. Some issues the offices raised such as how is this going to change the process going forward? The other is are they going to revisit other tornados in the past that impacted train cars? He also, half jokingly, mentioned that before he retired, he was going to make sure to get El Reno 2013 upgraded, as well as 2011’s Goldsby and Chickasha EF4s. He discussed the process of rating the 2011 El Reno tornado using a combination of the oil rig and DOW measurements, which set some of the precedent for the Enderlin upgrade.

John Gordon (former NWS Louisville MIC) was all on board with reanalysis to make sure the record is correct. Brought up Hurricane Andrew being upgraded 20 years later, as well as the AMS’ investigation of the world record highest earth temperature in Libya that turned out to be incorrect. Gordon also gave huge props to Grand Forks for pursuing this so aggressively and getting it right. Troy Kimmel, a regular WeatherBrains panelist, didn’t necessarily agree with going back and reanalyzing because it’s just going to add more confusion to an already confusing process.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but that's a copout to my mind. The ratings were wrong and the fixes are easy. Enough said.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
There might be enough info here to make a calculation on the Tuscaloosa Railroad Bridge. Either way, I found some really detailed pics of it.

The bridge was 564 feet long and rose 120 feet above the streambed.

The one that needs looked as weighed 34 tons and was rotated and thrown approximately 100 feet straight up hill. I believe it's the shortest one on the far right.

Here's the before and after
View attachment 46985
View attachment 46986

Here's as many angles as I can get of it.

View attachment 46987
View attachment 46988
View attachment 46989
View attachment 46990
View attachment 46991
View attachment 46994

Based on these photos it looks like the trestle was probably 40 feet tall. Assuming the 4 outer steel columns are a foot wide that'd make the starting surface area about 640 square feet. Not sure how to calculate all the inner beams and cross sections. Probably can just do a rough estimate and doesn't have to be too precise. I wonder what forces were required to loft it that far without even considering the concrete pilings it was anchored to.

Another interesting tidbit about this area:

"More than 600 feet of steel track was lost, much of which was left warped
and trailing into the forest. Kevin Laws, the Science and Operations Officer
at the NWS in Birmingham, stated in episode 797 of the Weather Brains
podcast that 'I've never seen railroad tracks that were bent into big U-
shapes. They were actually touching end to end ... the train ties, the wood
pieces that go under the track ... they were being dug up out of the ground
and slung fifteen miles away, that's just incredible.' "
View attachment 46992
View attachment 46993
Click to expand...
Um, holy mother of god.
 
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