• Welcome to TalkWeather!
    We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion.
    CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER

2024 Atlantic Hurricane Season

Messages
423
Reaction score
1,166
Location
Kentucky
In theory, yes, but in actuality we have been mostly underperforming in terms of major tornado outbreaks this spring, given the emergent Niña and the -PDO. Under similar circumstances a few decades ago, in the pre-warming era, we might well have seen multiple HIGH-Risk events that verified tornado-wise, especially in terms of long-tracked EF2+ events. So far only 26–7 April really merited a HIGH Risk tornado-wise to date. If you look at posts from a few months ago you will see that some people were bringing up high-end years such as 1974 and 2011 as analogs or parallels. To date verification has not gone so well. We are seeing above-average numbers of (lower-end, shorter-tracked) tornadoes, but possibly fewer strong, long-tracked events than one might have anticipated.

Back OT: I will openly concede that I personally believe all the high-end forecasts for this season, like a lot of the high-end expectations tornado-wise to date, are likely to bust, and I will freely use that term. Others are equally free to disagree with this, but I am really skeptical, in light of long-term trends toward a drier, more stable tropical Atlantic and a weaker +AMM—trends that seem to be consistent with a warmer climate. I personally suspect that this has something to do with changes in the seasonality, spatiality, and/or intensity of (major) tornado outbreaks as well. I am sticking to a contrarian and unpopular position here, but I really do not believe that this season will see more than 140 units of ACE or so, much less 190-plus units. The past few seasons have been mostly underwhelming:
  • 2022: CSU in July forecasts ten hurricanes and five majors. Actual totals: eight hurricanes and two majors.
  • 2023: CSU in August forecasts nine hurricanes and four majors (University of Arizona in June: twelve hurricanes and six majors; UKMO in August: nine hurricanes and six majors). Actual totals: seven hurricanes and three majors.
Also, over the past two or three seasons the EC model in May has been overestimating seasonal ACE by fairly large margins.

CSU April forecasts with seasonal ACE ≥ 160 units, 1995–present:
  • 2006: 183 (observed: 83)
  • 2007: 174 (observed: 74)
  • 2011: 160 (observed: 126)
  • 2013: 165 (observed: 36)
  • 2022: 160 (observed: 94)
CSU June and/or August forecasts with seasonal ACE ≥ 160 units, 2014–present:
  • 2020: 160–200 (observed: 180)
  • 2022: 160–180 (observed: 94)
  • 2023: 160 (observed: 148)
You’ll take any opportunity to hijack whatever conversation is at hand back to your theory won’t you?

Who was seriously comparing this year to 2011/1974?? The analogs for this year were always 1973, 2010, and 2016. Not even close to 2011 or 1974. For one, we aren’t even officially in a La Niña state yet.

Regarding tropical season, or any severe weather event, it’s easy to sit back and underforecast and move the goalposts. We will see how this season plays out.
 
Messages
619
Reaction score
569
Location
Northern Europe
You’ll take any opportunity to hijack whatever conversation is at hand back to your theory won’t you?
Just admit you’re my secret admirer, on some level, and I yours. For someone who finds nothing of value in my posts, and who sees me as more or less a troll at best, you seem to be wasting (by your own judgment, not mine per se) a lot of time addressing them, instead of trying to ignore them, block them, or get me banned. Okay, then—and here I am genuinely curious: what value do you secretly see in my posts? Because otherwise your behaviour seems inexplicable to me, just as mine to you. I haven’t done the same to you, despite your critique, because I see many things of value in your contributions as well, including the criticism. And I mean that: if I didn’t value your input, or any criticism whatsoever, I wouldn’t even be reading it, much less responding.

Anyway, back OT:

Who was seriously comparing this year to 2011/1974?? The analogs for this year were always 1973, 2010, and 2016. Not even close to 2011 or 1974. For one, we aren’t even officially in a La Niña state yet.
No one. I was referring to @JPWX’s post in another thread mentioning those years in relation to tornadoes, not hurricanes, and only because @wx_guy brought up the connection between Gulf SST and severe weather. And I didn’t really want to go into severe weather originally, but digressed in relation to that point.

Regarding tropical season, or any severe weather event, it’s easy to sit back and underforecast and move the goalposts. We will see how this season plays out.
Calling out the likelihood of a bust in advance of a HIGH-Risk event (which did bust, incidentally)—moreover, by deferring in part to another, far more qualified person, not solely oneself—isn’t moving the goalposts. At least I don’t think so. In regard to the 2024 hurricane season: I think I made clear in multiple posts that I personally expect seasonal ACE in the 140s, no higher, and also mentioned that I think forecasts for 190-plus units will also be wrong.

And yes, let’s see how this season plays out. Even if I were right (which is uncertain at best), one can always be right for the wrong reasons, and I will freely admit to that.
 
Last edited:

andyhb

Member
Meteorologist
Messages
1,345
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Norman, OK
In theory, yes, but in actuality we have been mostly underperforming in terms of major tornado outbreaks this spring, given the emergent Niña and the -PDO. Under similar circumstances a few decades ago, in the pre-warming era, we might well have seen multiple HIGH-Risk events that verified tornado-wise, especially in terms of long-tracked EF2+ events. So far only 26–7 April really merited a HIGH Risk tornado-wise to date. If you look at posts from a few months ago you will see that some people were bringing up high-end years such as 1974 and 2011 as analogs or parallels. To date verification has not gone so well. We are seeing above-average numbers of (lower-end, shorter-tracked) tornadoes, but possibly fewer strong, long-tracked events than one might have anticipated.

Back OT: I will openly concede that I personally believe all the high-end forecasts for this season, like a lot of the high-end expectations tornado-wise to date, are likely to bust, and I will freely use that term. Others are equally free to disagree with this, but I am really skeptical, in light of long-term trends toward a drier, more stable tropical Atlantic and a weaker +AMM—trends that seem to be consistent with a warmer climate. I personally suspect that this has something to do with changes in the seasonality, spatiality, and/or intensity of (major) tornado outbreaks as well. I am sticking to a contrarian and unpopular position here, but I really do not believe that this season will see more than 140 units of ACE or so, much less 190-plus units. The past few seasons have been mostly underwhelming:
  • 2022: CSU in July forecasts ten hurricanes and five majors. Actual totals: eight hurricanes and two majors.
  • 2023: CSU in August forecasts nine hurricanes and four majors (University of Arizona in June: twelve hurricanes and six majors; UKMO in August: nine hurricanes and six majors). Actual totals: seven hurricanes and three majors.
Also, over the past two or three seasons the EC model in May has been overestimating seasonal ACE by fairly large margins.

CSU April forecasts with seasonal ACE ≥ 160 units, 1995–present:
  • 2006: 183 (observed: 83)
  • 2007: 174 (observed: 74)
  • 2011: 160 (observed: 126)
  • 2013: 165 (observed: 36)
  • 2022: 160 (observed: 94)
CSU June and/or August forecasts with seasonal ACE ≥ 160 units, 2014–present:
  • 2020: 160–200 (observed: 180)
  • 2022: 160–180 (observed: 94)
  • 2023: 160 (observed: 148)
Will you please just, for the love of god, stop with this.
 

andyhb

Member
Meteorologist
Messages
1,345
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Norman, OK
Just admit you’re my secret admirer, on some level, and I yours. For someone who finds nothing of value in my posts, and who sees me as more or less a troll at best, you seem to be wasting (by your own judgment, not mine per se) a lot of time addressing them, instead of trying to ignore them, block them, or get me banned. Okay, then—and here I am genuinely curious: what value do you secretly see in my posts? Because otherwise your behaviour seems inexplicable to me, just as mine to you. I haven’t done the same to you, despite your critique, because I see many things of value in your contributions as well, including the criticism. And I mean that: if I didn’t value your input, or any criticism whatsoever, I wouldn’t even be reading it, much less responding.

Anyway, back OT:


No one. I was referring to @JPWX’s post in another thread mentioning those years in relation to tornadoes, not hurricanes, and only because @wx_guy brought up the connection between Gulf SST and severe weather. And I didn’t really want to go into severe weather originally, but digressed in relation to that point.


Calling out the likelihood of a bust in advance of a HIGH-Risk event (which did bust, incidentally)—moreover, by deferring in part to another, far more qualified person, not solely oneself—isn’t moving the goalposts. At least I don’t think so. In regard to the 2024 hurricane season: I think I made clear in multiple posts that I personally expect seasonal ACE in the 140s, no higher, and also mentioned that I think forecasts for 190-plus units will also be wrong.

And yes, let’s see how this season plays out. Even if I were right (which is uncertain at best), one can always be right for the wrong reasons, and I will freely admit to that.
No one with any credibility was mentioning those years for this tornado season. In fact, the seasonal analogs that had more substance have actually done quite well (2010, 2016, etc.). Again, please stop.
 

andyhb

Member
Meteorologist
Messages
1,345
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Norman, OK
Like what point are you trying to prove with all of this nonsense? The thread is now nearly unreadable.

Also how on Earth have "high end" events become less common at least in the Atlantic Basin? Every year since and including 2017 has had a Cat 4+ landfall in the US aside from 2019 and 2023. Last year was a developing El Nino, and 2019 had Dorian, which was undeniably catastrophic for the Bahamas. This all does not mention 2020, which was extraordinarily active.
 
Last edited:
Messages
619
Reaction score
569
Location
Northern Europe
No one with any credibility was mentioning those years for this tornado season. In fact, the seasonal analogs that had more substance have actually done quite well (2010, 2016, etc.). Again, please stop.
I didn’t know that @JPWX was not credible. Credibility can be measured in many ways. (Your latter point about seasonal analogs is well taken, however.)
Like what point are you trying to prove with all of this nonsense? The thread is now nearly unreadable.
This is not the first time you and others have mentioned this. So if all I ever post is irrelevant and/or spurious nonsense, why even bother responding? Why not simply ignore, report, block, and/or ban instead?
Also how on Earth have "high end" events become less common at least in the Atlantic Basin? Every year since and including 2017 has had a Cat 4+ landfall in the US aside from 2019 and 2023. Last year was a developing El Nino, and 2019 had Dorian, which was undeniably catastrophic for the Bahamas. This all does not mention 2020, which was extraordinarily active.
From 1995 to 2010 there were eight hyperactive Atlantic seasons ACE-wise. In the comparable period since there have only been two. Re: historical data: pre-satellite ACE is likely significantly underestimated to begin with, especially over water and/or outside the U.S. (even CONUS observational records in some areas are reliable back to 1900 at earliest). Preliminary reanalysis has found much more ACE than officially documented in the late nineteenth century, for instance.

Re: those Cat-4+ landfalls*: personally, I think that a lot of intensities at landfall have been overestimated recently, including those of Ian, Laura, and Michael. Besides reconnaissance and NEXRAD, ground-based data only seem to support the Cat-4+ designation of the last, plus Maria in Puerto Rico. (I am not as sure about Ida, but still skeptical.) Compared to known Cat-4+ hits from previous decades observations on land have not really supported the Cat-4+ ratings of Harvey, Irma, Ian, and Laura.

Looking through official and/or unofficial research published on those earlier systems (1940s–‘70s), I can see that there were plenty of reports of gusts justifying Cat-4+ sustained winds at landfall, so lower population and/or sparseness of coverage was not an issue at those earlier dates. So if the data to justify were available then, they would have likely been similarly or even more abundant in the early 2000s, meaning more than recon/radar support for Cat-4+ at LF of Harvey, Irma, Ian, Laura, etc.

*U.S. official Cat-4+ landfalls only (since 2017), per your post
 

andyhb

Member
Meteorologist
Messages
1,345
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Norman, OK
I didn’t know that @JPWX was not credible. Credibility can be measured in many ways. (Your latter point about seasonal analogs is well taken, however.)

This is not the first time you and others have mentioned this. So if all I ever post is irrelevant and/or spurious nonsense, why even bother responding? Why not simply ignore, report, block, and/or ban instead?

From 1995 to 2010 there were eight hyperactive Atlantic seasons ACE-wise. In the comparable period since there have only been two. Re: historical data: pre-satellite ACE is likely significantly underestimated to begin with, especially over water and/or outside the U.S. (even CONUS observational records in some areas are reliable back to 1900 at earliest). Preliminary reanalysis has found much more ACE than officially documented in the late nineteenth century, for instance.

Re: those Cat-4+ landfalls*: personally, I think that a lot of intensities at landfall have been overestimated recently, including those of Ian, Laura, and Michael. Besides reconnaissance and NEXRAD, ground-based data only seem to support the Cat-4+ designation of the last, plus Maria in Puerto Rico. (I am not as sure about Ida, but still skeptical.) Compared to known Cat-4+ hits from previous decades observations on land have not really supported the Cat-4+ ratings of Harvey, Irma, Ian, and Laura.

Looking through official and/or unofficial research published on those earlier systems (1940s–‘70s), I can see that there were plenty of reports of gusts justifying Cat-4+ sustained winds at landfall, so lower population and/or sparseness of coverage was not an issue at those earlier dates. So if the data to justify were available then, they would have likely been similarly or even more abundant in the early 2000s, meaning more than recon/radar support for Cat-4+ at LF of Harvey, Irma, Ian, Laura, etc.

*U.S. official Cat-4+ landfalls only (since 2017), per your post
It should not be up to us to block your posts or ask for a ban. It's on you to improve your posting.
 

wolfywise

Member
Messages
16
Reaction score
39
Location
West Virgina
As I suspected about a month ago, the subtropical North Atlantic off Newfoundland has begun to warm up considerably vs. the tropical Atlantic. The area east of Newfoundland and south of Greenland in particular has seen substantial, expanded warming. In the meantime note the emergence of a cold arc offshore of northwestern Iberia and northwestern Africa. This is more typical of a -AMO than a +AMO. In April the +AMO arc was in a more canonical position, but now its axis has shifted westward, toward the northeastern Caribbean, with a relative minimum farther east, over the MDR, that is subtly linked to the cool arc. The +AMO arc has also cooled a bit vs. April.

The latest CFSv2 is starting to hint at a drier Caribbean during the peak of the season, which would be consistent with a weaker +AMO and/or warmer subtropics vs. tropics, suggestive of greater stability. Once again, I personally believe that the “hyperactive” forecasts, be they of official or unofficial provenance, will verify as well as the HIGH Risk for the Plains on 6 May 2024 (truly “hyperactive” Atlantic seasons going the way of high-end Plains tornado outbreaks in general). Modelling has yet to take into account the potential role of climate change in modulating hurricane and tornado seasons on a seasonal scale. High-end events may be becoming more and more infrequent.

202426-Apr-SSTA.png

202418-May-SSTA.png


As of now the SSTA configuration that would be needed to sustain the high-end forecasts looks to be eroding. April’s configuration was more conducive, in my view.
You really don't know what you're talking about at all, do you?
 

JBishopwx

Member
Sustaining Member
Messages
1,014
Reaction score
2,392
Location
Ackerman, MS
Special Affiliations
  1. SKYWARN® Volunteer
NOAA Releases 2024 Atlantic Hurricane Outlook.
*Above-normal activity due to a confluence of factors, including near-record warm ocean temperatures in the Atlantic Ocean, development of La Nina conditions in the Pacific, reduced Atlantic trade winds, and less wind shear, all of which tend to favor tropical storm formation.
*17-25 Name Storms
*8-14 Hurricanes, 4-7 of them being majors
*Accumulated energy forecast is the 2nd highest May forecast they have ever issued.
* 85% chance of an above-normal season, a 10% chance of a near-normal season, and a 5% chance of a below-normal season..
*Most ever predicted during the May outlook


GOROo0ob0AA5JBk.jpg


FB_IMG_1716475769413.jpg
 
Last edited:
Messages
619
Reaction score
569
Location
Northern Europe
19952020hyper-SSTA.png

202431-May-SSTA.png


^Current trends indicate that the bulk of the warmth (fig. 2) is in the subtropics vs. the tropics, which is not line with the SSTA composite (fig. 1) for hyperactive seasons since the current +AMO began; it is still less supportive of the upper-tier ACE forecasts, including CSU’s call for 210 seasonal units. Barring drastic changes, the emergent SSTA pattern would once again favour stability and/or wave-breaking in the deep tropics, thereby putting a potential cap on ACE generation. By contrast, the setup in late April was prototypical of a hyperactive season:

202426-Apr-SSTA.png


So there have been significant changes since the previous month that would arguably favour much less ACE than is being forecast. We shall see.
 
Messages
619
Reaction score
569
Location
Northern Europe
3 May 2024
Subtropical Atlantic: -0.4 °C
Tropical Atlantic (MDR): +1.3 °C
Difference: +0.9 °C

3 Jun 2024
Subtropical Atlantic: -1.09 °C
Tropical Atlantic (MDR): +1.49 °C
Difference: +0.4 °C

Source: OISSTv2 (per CyclonicWx)

So there has been a substantial weakening of the gradient between the tropical and subtropical Atlantic over the past month. This would likely lead to much less ACE than forecast if unchanged, given that fewer long-lived, intense storms would be needed to redistribute heat. Does anyone see any signs that the gradient will strengthen rather than continue to weaken over the coming weeks?
 
Back
Top