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Agreed, but cycloidal markings definitely isn't one of them
I suspect a number of the tornadoes rated F5 on the original F-scale were overrated. I think they have done well with rating tornadoes EF5 using the EF-scale though I believe the Chickasha, Goldsby, Vilonia, Rochelle, and Chapman tornadoes should have been rated EF5.
 
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I might as well put my money where my mouth is.
So, this blog here has some B&W pictures of damage done by the Guin tornado, yeah, this definitely looks pretty intense in parts, quite a bit of debris granulation:

Guin took forever to find decent damage photos of- i think it took until that video on that page was discovered. That was way back on the old TW in the "strongest Tornado Ever" thread. That was a good thread, wish it could've been archived.
 

buckeye05

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The Guin tornado, as well as the Tanner tornado allegedly swept away house foundations, when in actuality, it’s likely that what surveyors were looking at was the subflooring/floor platform being detached and swept away. That is how these kind of rumors get started.
 
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View attachment 3127

I forgot all about this tornado in 2007(Pipestone, Manitoba Canada tornado) was this an F4-EF4?
This was rated F3, spawned by the same supercell system that caused the Elie, Manitoba tornado (Canada's first and last F5, since they adapted the EF scale back in 2013). This thing had an impressive multivortex structure and I think the F3 rating was only because it traveled only largely uninhabited terrain, only doing damage to two homes and a barn shed and apparently an F3 was the best rating the surveyors could give it, at least according to their use of the scale and the structural integrity of the buildings it hit.
 
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I collete my Top10 most severe debarks from no EF5 tornados(offical) in last 10 years(2011-now),I may missed some of them due to lack of information and some of them were very close even acutally should be include in this list, such as Vilonia EF4 2014, Pilger West EF4 2014, Alpena SD EF4 2014, Rochelle EF4 2015, Canton EF3 2017, Beauregard AL 2019). Also not include the recent Bassfield MS EF4 which obviously belong to this list.
Goldsby OK EF4 2011(There was several other places much sereve than this.)
View attachment 3115

Chickasha OK EF4 2011(tree damage behind this EF5 candidate house was insane)
View attachment 3116

Canton lake OK EF3 2011
View attachment 3117

2011 Tuscaloosa AL EF4(I also heard Enterprise EF4 that day debarked lots of trees but I can't find the image.)
View attachment 3118

2014 Louisville MS EF4
View attachment 3119

2014 Pilger East NE EF4(close to both EF4 tornado but mainly affected by the East one)
source:

Also can find many photos from damage viewer
View attachment 3120

Stanton NE EF4
View attachment 3121

2015 Cisco EF3
View attachment 3123

2015 Holly springs EF4(photo taken several years after, hard to find the obriginal sources.)
View attachment 3124

2016 Chapman KS EF4(form Nick Slone's footage:)
View attachment 3125

I remember seeing a pic on either an old threat here or on Flickr of a pickup truck and combine that Chapman both threw at least a quarter of a mile and both vehicles were stripped down to their frames and were essentially fused together into one unrecognizable heap of scrap. Wish I could find that pic.
 

pohnpei

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I remember seeing a pic on either an old threat here or on Flickr of a pickup truck and combine that Chapman both threw at least a quarter of a mile and both vehicles were stripped down to their frames and were essentially fused together into one unrecognizable heap of scrap. Wish I could find that pic.
Maybe this was the image you mentioned. It just near the first picture which been given 200 mph in NCDC database.
09-08-19-103_72624_31b541df43ae14c.jpg
C7CwhOYWsAAcgzl.jpeg
09-08-06-103_72624_5078e1564b44dc2.png09-07-57-103_72624_e45d5be611cf3c4.png
KS-tornado-damage3-05262016_1464269889218_39008082_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
QQ截图20200126122227.jpg
 
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The Guin tornado, as well as the Tanner tornado allegedly swept away house foundations, when in actuality, it’s likely that what surveyors were looking at was the subflooring/floor platform being detached and swept away. That is how these kind of rumors get started.
Could have been crawlspace walls, too, especially if they were cinderblock. But those aren't really that common in the south, are they?
 
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bjdeming

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Would saturated grounds be more susceptible to ground scouring vs dry/normal ground?

I'm no expert but did study soils a bit back in the 80s in forestry. It's incredibly complex and can vary dramatically over a distance of just a few feet. You also must think of the layering at depth and, of course, vegetation and the various kinds of root systems.

That said, I was fascinated by the straight lines in those pictures of gouged-out areas after a tornado passed. That kind of looks like faulting in a solid area that's under stress.

One was even sort of rectangular!

Ordinary soil doesn't do that. Most soil boundaries are irregular in shape.

Anyway, moist soil should be more cohesive than dry stuff, and less like to get picked up. That's true of normal erosion. As for the beasts under discussion . . . ?

Could these rare gouges be places where there is a hard, but shallow "pan" of some sort, with the tornado approaching at such an angle that its seismic effects stress this more solid area so that some of it fractures and gets pulled up?
 
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Gossell as you say should probably have been rated F3 or F4. Cycloidal marks are probably able to be done by an EF2 or EF3. Now maybe if these cycloidal marks are deep and pronounced it might be EF4 but at the most.
Honestly I have a few questions to raise about all of the officially-rated F5 tornadoes in 1990. Hesston was borderline, since most of the houses swept away were not especially well-anchored, with only a couple being very well-built. I agree completely that Goessel was massively overrated.

Plainfield was an interesting case because almost all of the damage to buildings, vehicles, other structures, etc. was intense, but not exceptional...while at the same time, the crop scouring in the cornfields near the start of the path was extremely impressive, with apparently only roots left behind. It's another one of those cases where the rating really depends on whether you include vegetation damage as a DI. I haven't seen any photos of structural damage worse than low-end F4, but crop scouring that intense absolutely justifies an F5 rating imho.

I still am totally convinced that the strongest tornado of the year was the Pecos County tornado on 6/1, with the Trenton/Culbertson, NE tornado (6/15) being a close runner-up.
 

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buckeye05

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Pretty sure this was the same user who posted something about how the "Forgotten F5" tornado of Lawrence County, TN in 1998 threw a car 20 miles? Yeah, that guy was something else.
No this was someone else. With that said, those claims made by the poster you are referring to almost certainly untrue as well.
 
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Found this on Yourga Trucking's FB page, what remained on them after the Wheatland tornado hit the building. Literally nothing but the steel frame, some of the most impressive damage I've ever seen:

13.jpg

Link:
 

buckeye05

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I'll say this, Jarrell, Hackleburg, Rainsville, Smithville do seem to have partially swept away foundations by tearing off significant chunks of concrete from them, so I can sort of understand how these rumors get started. Still, I do wish urban legends like this could be swept away (pun intended) for good. Perhaps these threads will be a place to start that effort?
Yeah those mentioned did tear off chunks of foundations, but the idea of a tornado actually tearing entire slabs out of the ground is pretty absurd. That has never happened. Rumors of that happening are associated with Guin, Tanner, and Lawrenceburg, and it just isn't true.



So this website has a pretty incredible college of damage photographs from the Niles/Wheatland tornado of 1985, but only of the Ohio portion of the path. I'm having difficulty finding photographs of the damage in Pennsylvania, where the tornado seems to have hit peak intensity. Anyways, a couple of photographs that stood out to me.

1. This is around Lordstown, Ohio. Impressive wind rowing.
View attachment 3172

Citation: Unknown, “Palmyra Road, Lordstown, Ohio.,” Trumbull Memory Project, accessed May 5, 2020, http://trumbullmemory.org/items/show/33.

2. From Niles Ohio. Wind rowing on par with Andover.
View attachment 3173

Citation: Unknown, “Shadow Ridge Drive, Niles, Ohio.,” Trumbull Memory Project, accessed May 5, 2020, http://trumbullmemory.org/items/show/54.

3. The massive propane tanks that were crushed and rolled in Niles.
View attachment 3174

Citation: Unknown, “Ashland Oil and Refining Terminal propane tank in Niles, Ohio. ,” Trumbull Memory Project, accessed May 5, 2020, http://trumbullmemory.org/items/show/55.

There is another photo of the tank that was thrown and landed on the road nearby but for some reason it wouldn't upload. I recommend browsing this site for more photographs, as there is too many to all post here.

Niles was by far the most violent tornado in Ohio history. Absolutely deserves the rating it was given, and produced much more violent damage than Xenia.
Also, speaking of other violent Ohio tornadoes, I believe that the Toledo. OH tornado of 1965 should have been rated F5. It swept away numerous anchor-bolted homes. The Pittsfield/Strongsville, OH tornado also may have produced F5 damage, though I haven't found any photographic evidence that proves this.
 

warneagle

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Niles was by far the most violent tornado in Ohio history. Absolutely deserves the rating it was given, and produced much more violent damage than Xenia.
Also, speaking of other violent Ohio tornadoes, I believe that the Toledo. OH tornado of 1965 should have been rated F5. It swept away numerous anchor-bolted homes. The Pittsfield/Strongsville, OH tornado also may have produced F5 damage, though I haven't found any photographic evidence that proves this.
Given how uh, liberal some of the interpretations of F5 damage were back then, I'm really surprised none of the Palm Sunday 1965 tornadoes was rated F5. There are a few that have better cases than some other tornadoes which were rated F5.
 
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Given how uh, liberal some of the interpretations of F5 damage were back then, I'm really surprised none of the Palm Sunday 1965 tornadoes was rated F5. There are a few that have better cases than some other tornadoes which were rated F5.
I think 2-3 were initially rated F5 but later downgraded to F4. Still quite surprising either way.
 
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Honestly I have a few questions to raise about all of the officially-rated F5 tornadoes in 1990. Hesston was borderline, since most of the houses swept away were not especially well-anchored, with only a couple being very well-built. I agree completely that Goessel was massively overrated.

Plainfield was an interesting case because almost all of the damage to buildings, vehicles, other structures, etc. was intense, but not exceptional...while at the same time, the crop scouring in the cornfields near the start of the path was extremely impressive, with apparently only roots left behind. It's another one of those cases where the rating really depends on whether you include vegetation damage as a DI. I haven't seen any photos of structural damage worse than low-end F4, but crop scouring that intense absolutely justifies an F5 rating imho.

I still am totally convinced that the strongest tornado of the year was the Pecos County tornado on 6/1, with the Trenton/Culbertson, NE tornado (6/15) being a close runner-up.
Not only was the scouring in Plainfield impressive, but for being only around 10 yards it threw half of a semi and a few cars great distances. The other two monsters in June of 1990 seem like good candidates for an F5 rating or EF5 rating on todays scale.
 

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So, this is pretty incredible. A 3-part synced series of the Andover tornado from beginning to end. Part 2 is the most notable, as the transition of this thing from single-vortex stovepipe to multi-vortex wedge was caught on tape at multiple vantage points at the same time.

1.
2.
3.

It's really hard to find damage pics of the worst-hit areas of Andover, perhaps I can track down more photographs of F5 damage done by it another time.

While on the topic of Andover, it'd be real nice if anyone would know of any sources of damage pics caused by the Red Rock storm. That thing reminds me ALOT of El Reno 2011, as it basically had the same path length and width of that tornado.

I found two damage image from Red Rock tornado
QQ截图20200507180852.jpg
source:


QQ截图20200507181949.jpg
source:https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/10.1175/1520-0493(1993)121<2200:DRWSOS>2.0.CO;2
Very useful article! The article describedd the damge above just happened before the photo below which I believe shot by B Barlow at 1852UTC which also was the point that around ~280mph(125m/s) measured by LANL portable Doppler at 150-190AGL. This article also mentioned that maybe the debris from this house bring about the previous DOW wind record thereafter.
228905_438169139558046_302494256_n.jpg
source
 
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