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  • Current Tropical Systems
    Melissa

Significant Tornado Events

I guess you didn't read my messages, I said my wording was wrong lmao, all I said was Enderlin had real problems with it's calculation that SHOULDN'T be swept under the rug, idk how that means I have a conspiracy but whatever sounds good to u, if you trust math so much then you trust Saltical based on literally everything he's put out, real peer reviewed studies support him too so gotta pick one at some point.
Re: Enderlin rating. I saw nothing wrong with your posts on it, it's totally fine to question the rating itself. However, I disagree on there being any issues with said calculations, maybe with exception to the >266 mph lofting case (there's good evidence to suggest the "lofted" train did indeed make contact with the ground a couple times). The issues I seem to recall you pointing out, i.e. the calculations not taking enough factors into account, leading to a potentially anomalously high value, are also arguments that could easily be applied to how we calculate wind velocities to home damage. If anything, the home calculations take into account more generalized assumptions from what I can tell. In this sense, these "issues" fall more under the category of problems with the scale itself, if it can even be considered an issue in the first place. There's zero chance we'd be able to calculate something more complicated without making a plethora of other assumptions, and the whole thing would become an absolute mess with gigantic errors assuming we'd be able to even get a comprehensive value out of it.

I have zero problems with this "Saltical" individual, but we need some actual work done by them that's showing these cycloid calculations and whatnot if they are to be taken seriously. A good example of this is Ethan Moriarty's calculations, which he publicly posts to Twitter. He's a genuine engineer and also the fact that Tim Marshall got a value very close to his for the same Enderlin wind calc definitely helps with the credibility there. Are there images of his work that this individual would be willing to share, either through themselves or through one of you guys? If not, that's fine, but don't expect people here to automatically buy it, especially if it goes against a common consensus. I, for one, would love to see any work that displays their findings to have a look for myself. That's the best way to determine credibility.
 
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Weren’t you the same one that was in full conspiracy mode post Enderlin EF5? Saying the weather enterprise was sweeping problems with the calculations under the rug?

So it’s totally okay to trust this random Saltical guy, who is apparently some quasi discord celebrity and according to some of you on here beyond reproach, but Enderlin EF5’s calculations by multiple professionals is a questionable conspiracy? I know Saltical is part of the “cool kids Nick Kraz” club, but until he actually publishes a peer reviewed article that is accepted at large by the scientific community, it’s just a hobbyist’s theory. I’m really not trying to be harsh here, but the constant shade being thrown at tornadotalk by you all is bullsh*t. It’s the same group doing it.


The issue is, post 3/14/25, this site saw a huge influx of Discord/Reddit users. Some of them have been awesome contributors.. others contribute absolutely nothing of note but sure aren’t lacking in the arrogance department.
At least tag me next time you want to throw my name around. The fact that you’re this pressed over differing opinions on a forum is honestly hilarious. Neither of us are part of any “club,” but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Genuinely pathetic, LOL.
 
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Yeah not gonna lie, this thread is not going in a good direction.
I'll take the blame. I started it by getting too defensive about Vilonia's rating, sorry.

But this whole "EF4 was appropriate for Vilonia" argument is, for lack of a better word, crap. And it's been pretty convincingly debunked many times, including on this very forum.

At least tag me next time you want to throw my name around. The fact that you’re this pressed over differing opinions on a forum is honestly hilarious. Neither of us are part of any “club,” but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better,. Genuinely pathetic, LOL.
You have a fair amount of guts, my guy. I'll give you that.
 
I'll take the blame. I started it by getting too defensive about Vilonia's rating, sorry.

But this whole "EF4 was appropriate for Vilonia" argument is, for lack of a better word, crap. And it's been pretty convincingly debunked many times, including on this very forum.


You have a fair amount of guts, my guy. I'll give you that.
You cannot go up to me and say this isn’t atleast Joplin level damage.
Albiet this was taken 3 weeks after the tornado, its still impressive nonetheless.
IMG_1613.jpeg
 
I'll take the blame. I started it by getting too defensive about Vilonia's rating, sorry.

But this whole "EF4 was appropriate for Vilonia" argument is, for lack of a better word, crap. And it's been pretty convincingly debunked many times, including on this very forum.


You have a fair amount of guts, my guy. I'll give you that.
All good man. No need to apologize.
 
At least tag me next time you want to throw my name around. The fact that you’re this pressed over differing opinions on a forum is honestly hilarious. Neither of us are part of any “club,” but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Genuinely pathetic, LOL.
Oh give me a break lmao. Last time you were here, someone asked you an innocent question about tornado damage and you proceeded to post it to all of your followers on Twitter in an attempt to make the site look bad. Basically insinuating people here don’t know what they’re talking about. It was completely disingenuous on your part and when we called you out on it, you left the site and didn’t respond anymore. Nice of you to finally crawl out of the woodwork though, I noticed you still haven’t addressed that. Says more about you than any of us here, kid.

It’s stupid to take things out of context and post them on your Twitter in an attempt to appear superior or “earn some internet points”. That’s exactly what you did with this site. Real mature on your part.
 
Agree with everything you said.

Re: Saltical. He’s the person that claims the 2023 Robinson IL tornado was more powerful than Smithville because his totally non-public and non-peer reviewed “cycloidal calculation” said so.

I’m starting to think Wx Discord is as bad, if not worse, than WxTwitter
again the cycloidal calculations only work for the parent tornado and not the suction vortices, also this is only for a small part of the Smithville damage and its not exactly in the most extreme damage that people tend to talk about.
 
Oh give me a break lmao. Last time you were here, someone asked you an innocent question about tornado damage and you proceeded to post it to all of your followers on Twitter in an attempt to make the site look bad. Basically insinuating people here don’t know what they’re talking about. It was completely disingenuous on your part and when we called you out on it, you left the site and didn’t respond anymore. Nice of you to finally crawl out of the woodwork though, I noticed you still haven’t addressed that. Says more about you than any of us here, kid.

It’s stupid to take things out of context and post them on your Twitter in an attempt to appear superior or “earn some internet points”. That’s exactly what you did with this site. Real mature on your part.

Oh give me a break lmao. Last time you were here, someone asked you an innocent question about tornado damage and you proceeded to post it to all of your followers on Twitter in an attempt to make the site look bad. Basically insinuating people here don’t know what they’re talking about. It was completely disingenuous on your part and when we called you out on it, you left the site and didn’t respond anymore. Nice of you to finally crawl out of the woodwork though, I noticed you still haven’t addressed that. Says more about you than any of us here, kid.

It’s stupid to take things out of context and post them on your Twitter in an attempt to appear superior or “earn some internet points”. That’s exactly what you did with this site. Real mature on your part.
The question that person asked wasn’t an issue at all, I only included it in that post for context. The real problem was certain individuals discrediting a tornado rating without applying a shred of scientific reasoning, then going as far as to call NWS offices “stupid” for their assessments. That behavior doesn’t reflect everyone here, but it certainly doesn’t paint a good picture for a few of you involved in this discussion.

Regarding the “credibility” comment, while Saltical and I are not officially associated with the NWS, we’ve had the opportunity to work alongside them on actual cases and data analysis, we have some credibility with these sorts of things. None of what I posted was about “internet points.” Some of you, including yourself, contribute to the very toxicity that makes this forum a mess.

For the record, I rejoined back in July after the April 2nd discussion and I’m pretty sure I made amends with several people here. Lighten up a bit, “ColdFront,” this is supposed to be a friendly discussion, not bashing others. Have any other issues? Contact me personally, I’m more than willing to work things out, I’m not here to make enemies.
 
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Can we at least try to keep this civil here?

Having just the other day gone through just about every damage photo there is from Robinson, I can say with confidence that it was nowhere near the level of Smithville, especially in terms of ground scouring, debris granulation, and vehicle and tree damage. I'm actually in the camp that NWS Lincoln could easily have given a 170-180 mph EF4 rating to Robinson. But EF5, above probably 10-15 significantly more violent tornadoes? That would have been insanity.
 
shocked donald glover GIF


Can we at least try to keep this civil here?

Having just the other day gone through just about every damage photo there is from Robinson, I can say with confidence that it was nowhere near the level of Smithville, especially in terms of ground scouring, debris granulation, and vehicle and tree damage. I'm actually in the camp that NWS Lincoln could easily have given a 170-180 mph EF4 rating to Robinson. But EF5, above probably 10-15 significantly more violent tornadoes? That would have been insanity.
As others have already mentioned, his analysis focuses specifically on cycloidal markings produced by the tornado. While Robinson shows the highest calculated values (in an area without structural or tree damage, like his other calculations), that doesn’t mean he’s claiming it was stronger than Smithville overall. It simply indicates that, within that localized area of analysis, the winds may have been stronger, but that doesn’t translate to a higher peak intensity along the entire path.
 
And all of the EF5 homes in Joplin were either swept off their subfloors or had straight nailed studs. So if you're going to downgrade the Vilonia home for those reasons, Hackleburg and Joplin would have to be downgraded too.

Also, having both exterior AND interior walls bolted down isn't an attribute of a UB home? Even the EF5 homes in Moore didn't have that.

And, okay... this Saltical guy 'calculated' 158mph cycloids on top of a 158mph DI. Did he provide ANY insight to how he ascertained those bogus 'calculations'? He could have literally just said 'these marks were indicative of 158mph winds cause a nearby DI said so'. Until his stuff gets peer reviewed, or he AT LEAST provides some insight into his so-called method, I have to call it out as bogus.
while i don't know whether its true that all the EF5 homes in joplin had straight nailed studs, i will say that there is pictures of homes in joplin that had the majority of their sill plates removed, as well as bent anchor bolts, which indicates a completely load transfer despite the straight nailed studs. this leads me to believe even if those homes had straight nailed studs, they would still get rated EF5 (this has been backed up by ladue recently with him stating straight nailing can still be EXP).

by comparison, the large majority of the vilonia 190DI's sillplates remained on the foundation, and there was very few bent bolts. the only bent bolt on the vilonia home was one that was improperly placed too close to the edge of the foundation. the generally accepted criteria for EF5 by modern standards is the removal of the majority of a homes sillplates and the presence of some bent bolts, neither of which vilonia had (while joplin had both)

also, joplin still had EF5 DIs even ignoring the wood framed residences. for example, i believe its most impressive DI is a masonry office building, ive seen suggestions that could've warranted a ~220mph rating.

"Also, having both exterior AND interior walls bolted down isn't an attribute of a UB home? Even the EF5 homes in Moore didn't have that."
also, as far as i know, the interior walls of that vilonia home weren't bolted down, they were attached with cutnails weren't they? could be wrong though.

"Until his stuff gets peer reviewed, or he AT LEAST provides some insight into his so-called method" he has explained how his formula works on twitter. while his paper is still in progress and hasnt been officially peer reviewed yet, Jim LaDue himself has seen it and approved of it, as well as other notable figures in the tornado scene such as Reed Timmer.
 
I mean i have no problem with calling people out on certain things if it's justified, but i just don't see some good reason that Nick needed to be brought into this. This was legit just a discussion about TT/Saltical, and i agreed with most of the points but I'm confused on why we needed some extra spice to fuel to the fire?

All ill say is: just do not randomly fire a extra name who's done nothing or affected this discussion in anyway just for the sake of it.

In order to provide some genuine content to steer the boat up again, i found a channel with around 40 obscure damage videos of Joplin and some of them are definitely impressive.

, this is just one of many from the channel!
 
Here’s what I have to say. Even if every detail provided by this discord guy is correct, it’s still a flawed argument in the sense that it’s holding the definition of EF5 damage to an unreasonable standard. No, I’m not just saying that because of my own opinion; I am also saying this because this sentiment is shared by people like Tony Lyza and Jim LaDue. Toward the end of LaDue’s recent video presentation, he specifically stated that a house does not have to be a fortress to earn an EF5 rating, and specifically instructed surveyors to not play it overly conservative. In addition, LaDue addresses (albeit not very boldly or clearly) the overall phenomenon of higher ratings decreasing in recent years, what can be done to address that, and subsequently provides examples of DIs that should have been rated higher. In that presentation, LaDue even provided a potential scenario allowing for an EF5 rating in which a house has been swept from its floor diaphragm/subfloor.

While I do acknowledge that things like garage door orientation and house design (overhangs/recesses/etc) play a role in how a house fails, the rest of the rationale being used in an attempt to prop up the EF4 rating of the Wicker Street home is taking it too far and goes against the sentiment LaDue was clearly trying to get across in his most recent presentation, which is to not be overly conservative. If a person really wanted to, they could easily point out any number of “weak points” in a house that has been removed from its subfloor, even with external sheathing and toe-nailing present. Do you really think the person trying to rationalize the Vilonia home’s rating would even consider a bare floor diaphragm for an EF5 rating given the level of scrutiny they are operating with? Of course not. Yet LaDue provides a set of circumstances where EF5 can be applied in that scenario. Another example, going all the way back to Moore 2013, if LaDue wanted to downgrade those first EF5 homes to EF4 because the sweep wasn’t clean enough, he could have. If he wanted to downgrade the EF5 homes near Moore Medical Center to EF4 citing excessive dwell time caused by the loop in the path, he could have. But he didn’t. Why? Because that’s losing the plot and would serve no purpose in terms of establishing an accurate rating. So back to the Wicker Street home; can you nit-pick your way down until the rating “fits?” Sure. But just because you can, doesn’t mean that you should, and it sure as hell doesn’t mean your takeaway would be a more accurate representation of the Vilonia tornado’s true intensity. That’s not even bringing the fertilizer tank, Fish Hooks Restaurant, and other EF5 candidate homes mysteriously missing from the survey into the equation.

Essentially, if LaDue puts out a presentation pertaining to the current application of the EF scale, addresses the underrating of tornadoes and the decrease in higher ratings that was the focus of Tony Lyza’s paper, and lays out a less stringent approach that doesn’t hold EF5 house damage to absurdly conservative standards, to the point where bare subfloors are “fair game” in some scenarios, I’m going to put a little more stock in that standard versus one provided by some guy on discord trying to rationalize a botched, half-baked survey from 2014 that used incredibly questionable rationale. While I understand the beauty of scientific proof, and get the importance of factoring in whatever available construction information is at hand, if the goal is really about establishing ratings that accurately reflect tornado intensity, people need to know where the line between being analytical and being pedantic lies. If you can’t tell where that line is, you lose the plot and the concept of what “could” be used to rationalize a lower rating begins to take precedence at the expense of what is likely accurate. That’s what led to the EF5 drought, and that’s why people like Lyza and LaDue are finally taking a critical look at that mindset and approach.

In a nutshell, the over-analysis of the Wicker Street home is exactly that: over-analysis. It loses the plot and crosses the line between reasonable deductions, and being overly pedantic. Just because someone created a list of “here’s why”, doesn’t make that list reasonable or helpful in the context of determining an appropriate rating.

The one thing taking that approach will help you with however, is earning brownie points from certain parties, and demonstrating that you’re willing to tow the line. Make of that what you will.
 
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I mean i have no problem with calling people out on certain things if it's justified, but i just don't see some good reason that Nick needed to be brought into this. This was legit just a discussion about TT/Saltical, and i agreed with most of the points but I'm confused on why we needed some extra spice to fuel to the fire?
I don’t see why not, he’s a relatively prominent figure when it comes to damage analysis.
 
shocked donald glover GIF


Can we at least try to keep this civil here?

Having just the other day gone through just about every damage photo there is from Robinson, I can say with confidence that it was nowhere near the level of Smithville, especially in terms of ground scouring, debris granulation, and vehicle and tree damage. I'm actually in the camp that NWS Lincoln could easily have given a 170-180 mph EF4 rating to Robinson. But EF5, above probably 10-15 significantly more violent tornadoes? That would have been insanity.
Nobody ever said Robinson was stronger than Smithville. People are taking his analysis’s estimate and comparing it with the NWS’s official estimate, which is also likely wrong.

And yes, let’s keep this civil, as I really don’t want to get into a bickering match with someone on a Sunday morning. Not that this forum is particularly civil when it comes to this stuff anyways.
 
Here’s what I have to say. Even if every detail provided by this discord guy is correct, it’s still a flawed argument in the sense that it’s holding the definition of EF5 damage to an unreasonable standard. No, I’m not just saying that because of my own opinion; I am also saying this because this sentiment is shared by people like Tony Lyza and Jim LaDue. Toward the end of LaDue’s recent video presentation, he specifically stated that a house does not have to be a fortress to earn an EF5 rating, and specifically instructed surveyors to not play it overly conservative. In addition, LaDue addresses (albeit not very boldly or clearly) the overall phenomenon of higher ratings decreasing in recent years, what can be done to address that, and subsequently provides examples of DIs that should have been rated higher. In that presentation, LaDue even provided a potential scenario allowing for an EF5 rating in which a house has been swept from its floor diaphragm/subfloor.

While I do acknowledge that things like garage door orientation and house design (overhangs/recesses/etc) play a role in how a house fails, the rest of the rationale being used in an attempt to prop up the EF4 rating of the Wicker Street home is goes against the sentiment LaDue was clearly trying to get across in his most recent presentation. If a person really wanted to, they could easily point out any number of “weak points” in a house that has been removed from its subfloor, even with external sheathing and toe-nailing present. Do you really think the person trying to rationalize the Vilonia home’s rating would even consider a bare floor diaphragm for an EF5 rating given the level of scrutiny they are operating with? Of course not. Yet LaDue provides a set of circumstances where EF5 can be applied in that scenario. Another example, going all the way back to Moore 2013, if LaDue wanted to downgrade those first EF5 homes to EF4 because the sweep wasn’t clean enough, he could have. If he wanted to downgrade the EF5 homes near Moore Medical Center to EF4 citing excessive dwell time caused by the loop in the path, he could have. But he didn’t. Why? Because that’s losing the plot and would serve no purpose in terms of establishing an accurate rating. So back to the Wicker Street home; can you nit-pick your way down until the rating “fits?” Sure. But just because you can, doesn’t mean that you should, and it sure as hell doesn’t mean your takeaway would be a more accurate representation of the Vilonia tornado’s true intensity. That’s not even bringing the fertilizer tank, Fish Hooks Restaurant, and other EF5 candidate homes mysteriously missing from the survey into the equation.

Essentially, if LaDue puts out a presentation pertaining to the current application of the EF scale, addresses the underrating of tornadoes and the decrease in higher ratings that was the focus of Tony Lyza’s paper, and lays out a less stringent approach that doesn’t hold EF5 house damage to absurdly conservative standards, to the point where bare subfloors are “fair game” in some scenarios, I’m going to put a little more stock in that standard versus one provided by some guy on discord trying to rationalize a botched, half-baked survey from 2014 that used incredibly questionable rationale. While I understand the beauty of scientific proof, and get the importance of factoring in whatever available construction information is at hand, if the goal is really about establishing ratings that accurately reflect tornado intensity, people need to know where the line between being analytical and being pedantic lies. If you can’t tell where that line is, you lose the plot and the concept of what “could” be used to rationalize a lower rating begins to take precedence at the expense of what is likely accurate. That’s what led to the EF5 drought, and that’s why people like Lyza and LaDue are finally taking a critical look at that mindset and approach.

In a nutshell, the over-analysis of the Wicker Street home is exactly that: over-analysis. It loses the plot and crosses the line between reasonable deductions, and being overly pedantic. Just because someone created a list of “here’s why”, doesn’t make that list reasonable or helpful in the context of determining an appropriate rating.

The one thing taking that approach will help you with however, is earning brownie points from certain parties, and demonstrating that you’re willing to tow the line. Make of that what you will.
Overanalysis was the problem for 12 years. Even then, the problem was sneaking in by 5/24/11, with some.... Questionable ratings given to Goldsby and Chickasha DIs and we didn't really know it.

Of course approaching 2013, we had Moore. And that was still on the very strict portion of the scale yet some surveyors somewhat misused it and even then, regardless of Moore being EF5 intensity, some houses definitely were given the wrong rating. If we went off contextuals, i think it'd be very clear EF5.

Then El Reno started the debacle, and admittedly i still don't see why this started it because there's no evidence to suggest EF5 intensity and the car damage WAS intense but i wouldn't call it to the level of possible EF5 intensity.

Your comment explains Vilonia perfectly so skip that.

Rochelle. Several 200 mph DIs and it miraculously stayed under EF5 intensity there? Very clear EF5.

Sulphur had the same issue as El Reno with RaXPoL, but no evidence to suggest EF5 intensity

We didn't really have any major rating issues between 2017-2019, but Bassfield under the new rating standards actually is EF5 for me. The contextuals are extremely impressive.

Mayfield. I think it's a no brainer that this thing needed the rating.

Pembroke to some extent but i haven't seen strong evidence for this.

Rolling Fork. Florist shop im still inbetween on but certain of EF5 intensity.

Greenfield. doesn't deserve it for me, tornado likely was EF5 intensity but i have never actually seen a impressive contextual to point to it.

Enderlin. 10/6/25, finally broke the drought.

I'm very glad we're entering a new era. I got into weather in 2023 and remember calling Spalding 2023 a EF5 as it was ongoing or it was the other large rain-wrapped wedge that day. At least, professionals in the area are finally stepping up to look at it. That Lyza paper absolutely skyrocketed our progress.
 
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