• Welcome to TalkWeather!
    We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion.
    CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER
  • Current Tropical Systems
    Erin

Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Aaron Rider said:
9 F5s. 9!!! Even on my list (the official 7 + perhaps Moodyville, Tennessee and one of Frankfort or Mannsville), this surpasses even 74.
Click to expand...
Might be a very hot take, but after everything I've seen on this forum from past crazy outbreaks, I'd put both Palm Sunday 1965 and the 2011 Super Outbreak above the 1974 Super Outbreak. Guin, Tanner (I forget which one was worse though), and Brandenburg were the most violent tornadoes from that day from what I can see, and the damage they inflicted was reminiscent of the damage inflicted by tornadoes from the other two outbreaks. However, to me, 1965 and 2011 simply felt like they had more truly upper-echelon tornadoes, and I feel like the F-scale ratings for 1974 were skewed heavily towards granting more violent ratings (and in 1965 and 2011 it was the other way around).

I'm willing to maybe say that 1965 may have been less intense than 1974, but definitely not 2011. The 2011 Super Outbreak is the peak of tornado outbreaks in today's day and age.
 
Last edited:
slenker said:
Might be a very hot take, but after everything I've seen on this forum from past crazy outbreaks, I'd put both Palm Sunday 1965 and the 2011 Super Outbreak above the 1974 Super Outbreak. Guin, Tanner (I forget which one was worse though), and Brandenburg were the most violent tornadoes from that day from what I can see, and the damage they inflicted was reminiscent of the damage inflicted by tornadoes from the other two outbreaks. However, to me, 1965 and 2011 simply felt like they had more truly upper-echelon tornadoes, and I feel like the F-scale ratings for 1974 were skewed heavily towards granting more violent ratings (and in 1965 it was the other way around).

I'm willing to maybe say that 1965 may have been less intense than 1974, but definitely not 2011. The 2011 Super Outbreak is the peak of tornado outbreaks in today's day and age.
Click to expand...
Nothing from DePauw nor Cincinnati or convince me they were actually F5s.
 
Aaron Rider said:
Personally, based on recent impressive discussion, I have
The official 4
Plus
New Wren
Tuscaloosa
Flat Rock
Ringgold (which was apparently also extremely intense in Tennessee)
Cullman

9 F5s. 9!!! Even on my list (the official 7 + perhaps Moodyville, Tennessee and one of Frankfort or Mannsville), this surpasses even 74.
Click to expand...
Also would personally add Cordova as it caused what TH2002 viewed as EF5 damage in Cullman County. And Barnesville based off contextuals.

11 EF5s. ELEVEN.
 
Central Ohio Wx said:
Nothing from DePauw nor Cincinnati or the two Tanner tornadoes convince me they were actually F5s.
Click to expand...
I recall the quote looking like this when I first saw it lol. I was about to say, there is actually enough evidence to support F5 for BOTH Tanners, and I think DePauw and Cincinnati. Not enough evidence supporting EF5 for any of those, however.
 
slenker said:
Also, a little side note: The fact that we can see that many of the 2011 Super Outbreak tornadoes were more violent than their ratings suggested, and it still resulted in four EF5 tornadoes, is absolutely ludicrous to me, and really gives credence to how insane 2011 was.
Click to expand...
Also, Chickasha and Goldsby.

Has anyone looked at the Raleigh-Uniontown EF4 (the long-tracker in MS and AL)? I feel like that one was also particularly intense based on environment and track length.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Cullman continued...

Most of the ground level photos were exclusively shared with Tornado Talk by NWS surveyor Chris Darden. Considering this is a thread where we criticize tornado ratings and sometimes surveyors themselves I'm hesitant to share his photos without permission. Maybe @NickKrasz_Wx can get it! This is why most of the images I share will be satellite photos with descriptions.

The most intense damage in Morgan county occurred at Beverly and Larry Pirkle's residence. They just finished this "dream home" after 3 years of construction and had only been living in it for 5 weeks. Two family members lived in double wide manufactured homes on the property as well. A change in treefall pattern just as the twister struck the residence showed that the primary subvortex was particularly tight and volatile here. No debris was left behind from any of the three structures aside from three distinct streaks 260-360 yards to the Northeast.

View attachment 45948
View attachment 45949

Here's what the tornado looked like as it passed through the area



Part two of the tornadoes life occurred in sparsely populated rural area, but every home it hit was completely destroyed, with several having very little debris left behind. The intensity of destruction to wooded areas was worse even than the Little Rock, GA tornado. The tornado crossed into Marshall county traveling at 55 mph, with a diameter of 1,070 yards, but the strongest core of winds was only 55 yards wide. It hit the community of Ruth and destroyed several houses with vicious strength. Heavy farm equipment was tossed up to 20 yards.

View attachment 45950

12 residences were destroyed along the heavily wooded Edmonton and Parkwood Lanes.

View attachment 45951
View attachment 45952

In one .3 mile stretch a subvortex completely removed trees from their original locations, shattering several into small splinters, and flattening and debarking those that remained while caking them with dirt and debris. A 475 yards stretch of typical grass field was gouged several (or more) inches deep.

View attachment 45954
View attachment 45955
View attachment 45956

View attachment 45957

A 1.5 story home further down the path was lofted in one piece, with residents inside, and landed 100 yards away. The residents were swept another 100 yards after that.

View attachment 45958
5 people out of a family of 6 perished. 6-year-old Ari Hallmark was the only survivor.

continued...
Click to expand...

I was chasing that storm. I knew Jennifer Hallmark well and rode the bus with her for years. It took a while for people to grasp that the entire home moved 400 feet away, but as you see here it had been picked up and kicked down the road. It was very confusing for rescuers trying to figure out what damage came from where.

In other news, her daughter, Ari, graduated a few years ago. Ari effectively lost her entire family that day. If you want to hear more about her story I highly recommend The Girl Who Saw Heaven: A Fateful Tornado and a Journey of Faith

Images thanks to Google Earth/Airbus
1755129606732.png


9/2010
1755129845794.png
1755129995513.png
 
WesL said:
I was chasing that storm. I knew Jennifer Hallmark well and rode the bus with her for years. It took a while for people to grasp that the entire home moved 400 feet away, but as you see here it had been picked up and kicked down the road. It was very confusing for rescuers trying to figure out what damage came from where.

In other news, her daughter, Ari, graduated a few years ago. Ari effectively lost her entire family that day. If you want to hear more about her story I highly recommend The Girl Who Saw Heaven: A Fateful Tornado and a Journey of Faith

Images thanks to Google Earth/Airbus
View attachment 45983


9/2010
View attachment 45984
View attachment 45985
Click to expand...
The tornado talk article had a good section about Ari. One of the crazier tornado stories I've ever seen. I think James Spann wrote about it in his book too.
 
Aaron Rider said:
Personally, based on recent impressive discussion, I have
The official 4
Plus
New Wren
Tuscaloosa
Flat Rock
Ringgold (which was apparently also extremely intense in Tennessee)
Cullman

9 F5s. 9!!! Even on my list (the official 7 + perhaps Moodyville, Tennessee and one of Frankfort or Mannsville), this surpasses even 74.
Click to expand...
  1. Hackleburg - Phil campbell - Athens EF5 April 2011 (215 mph)
  2. Philadelphia EF5 April 2011 (215 mph)
  3. Smithville - Hodges EF5 April 2011 (215 mph)
  4. Fyffe - Rainsville - Sylvania EF5 April 2011 (205 mph)
  5. Flat Rock EF4+ April 2011 (205 mph)
  6. Ringgold EF4+ April 2011 (205 mph)
  7. Wren EF3+ April 2011 (205 mph)
  8. Cordova EF4 April 2011 (195+ mph)
  9. Tuscaloosa EF4+ April 2011 (200+ mph)
  10. Bridgeport EF4 April 2011 (200+ mph) - only for one small spot and its a bit iffy
  11. Barnesville EF3+ April 2011 (200+ mph)
  12. Shoal Creek - Ohatchee EF4 April 2011 (195+ mph)
there is quite a lot of tornadoes that should of been rated 195+ mph (note this is using the logic of pre 2014 EF scale rules as post 2014 would have 0 EF5 , and trying to do the most unbias way by using google sheet way of calculating it, (example if x = 201 mph then it does it for all)) while not finish and not perfect for now it brings up 7 ish EF5.
 
slenker said:
Might be a very hot take, but after everything I've seen on this forum from past crazy outbreaks, I'd put both Palm Sunday 1965 and the 2011 Super Outbreak above the 1974 Super Outbreak. Guin, Tanner (I forget which one was worse though), and Brandenburg were the most violent tornadoes from that day from what I can see, and the damage they inflicted was reminiscent of the damage inflicted by tornadoes from the other two outbreaks. However, to me, 1965 and 2011 simply felt like they had more truly upper-echelon tornadoes, and I feel like the F-scale ratings for 1974 were skewed heavily towards granting more violent ratings (and in 1965 and 2011 it was the other way around).

I'm willing to maybe say that 1965 may have been less intense than 1974, but definitely not 2011. The 2011 Super Outbreak is the peak of tornado outbreaks in today's day and age.
Click to expand...
I think the truly anomalous parts of those outbreaks are just how many supercells develop out in the open warm sector.

You could have a high risk verification with 3 to 5 supercells causing a major outbreak. However, you can easily see the 30 supercells identified by Fujita on 4/3/74 looking at the map he created. Lyza’s 2022 paper on 4/27/11 identified 29 supercells responsible for most of the tornados in the afternoon round. My own theory is that both of those days featured morning MCS rounds and the outflow boundaries left behind only added extra opportunities for convective initiation. Lyza found 12 supercells initiated on 4/27 near the thermal boundary left behind by QLCS 1 and 2. I think something similar was in play on 4/3/74 especially with the Xenia supercell. It was further east than any other storm at the time and seemed to initiate in northern Kentucky or around the Cincinnati area. Not to mention a potent MCS had just passed through that region not even 4 hours prior.

I think almost all supercell based tornados have moments of high intensity, and when you pepper large geographic areas with them like we saw on 4/3/74, Palm Sunday, and 4/27/11, it’s not exactly shocking we saw so many violent tornados.

Lyza’s 2022 paper:
 
ColdFront said:
I think the truly anomalous parts of those outbreaks are just how many supercells develop out in the open warm sector.

You could have a high risk verification with 3 to 5 supercells causing a major outbreak. However, you can easily see the 30 supercells identified by Fujita on 4/3/74 looking at the map he created. Lyza’s 2022 paper on 4/27/11 identified 29 supercells responsible for most of the tornados in the afternoon round. My own theory is that both of those days featured morning MCS rounds and the outflow boundaries left behind only added extra opportunities for convective initiation. Lyza found 12 supercells initiated on 4/27 near the thermal boundary left behind by QLCS 1 and 2. I think something similar was in play on 4/3/74 especially with the Xenia supercell. It was further east than any other storm at the time and seemed to initiate in northern Kentucky or around the Cincinnati area. Not to mention a potent MCS had just passed through that region not even 4 hours prior.

I think almost all supercell based tornados have moments of high intensity, and when you pepper large geographic areas with them like we saw on 4/3/74, Palm Sunday, and 4/27/11, it’s not exactly shocking we saw so many violent tornados.

Lyza’s 2022 paper:
Click to expand...

I'm becoming a big fan of Mr. Lyza's work, especially since he had the courage to be the first credible meteorologist to openly call out the artificial reduction in tornado ratings we have seen in recent years compared to the heyday of the F-scale era and the 2007-'13 period of the EF-scale (or at least, the first to do so in an official, peer-reviewed publication). I hope he makes it far in the field.
 
CheeselandSkies said:
I'm becoming a big fan of Mr. Lyza's work, especially since he had the courage to be the first credible meteorologist to openly call out the artificial reduction in tornado ratings we have seen in recent years compared to the heyday of the F-scale era and the 2007-'13 period of the EF-scale (or at least, the first to do so in an official, peer-reviewed publication). I hope he makes it far in the field.
Click to expand...
Agreed. That EF scale publication actually got some exposure on mainstream sites. I remember seeing it on USA Today. I feel like him and Wurman are the only credible mets really shining a light on that subject. I’m sure Doswell would be too if he was still around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top