• Welcome to TalkWeather!
    We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion.
    CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,121
Reaction score
4,581
Location
Colorado
Maybe I'm being overly hopeful and optimistic, but the upgrade of the 2010 Bellemont, AZ EF2 to EF3 years later sets a really great precedent for post analysis upgrades, and it could be the first of many. This kind of thing combined with other anecdotal evidence, such as Marshall's recent statements, a noticeable change in the way surveys are being conducted this year, and increasing talk about alterations and improvement of the EF scale makes me think some big changes are underway.
 

Nightking2021

Member
Messages
66
Reaction score
29
Location
Wichita, Kansas
Maybe I'm being overly hopeful and optimistic, but the upgrade of the 2010 Bellemont, AZ EF2 to EF3 years later sets a really great precedent for post analysis upgrades, and it could be the first of many. This kind of thing combined with other anecdotal evidence, such as Marshall's recent statements, a noticeable change in the way surveys are being conducted this year, and increasing talk about alterations and improvement of the EF scale makes me think some big changes are underway.
I hope so. Especially when you mention things such as trees being completely debarked and in some rare cases even the smallest twigs are debarked. Another thing would probably be ground scouring.
 

Marshal79344

Member
Messages
361
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Chicago, IL
Everybody talks about the big three, Goldsby, Chickasha, and the mighty El Reno Tornado. However, the first big tornado of the day has a very strong case for it being quite similar in intensity to the big three. Touching down at a camp lake near Canton Lake, the tornado rapidly intensified and severely damaged the camp as it moved offshore. The tornado passed near Longdale. One of the subvortexes within the tornado produced significant ground scouring and scoured a concrete road along a very narrow swath in this part of the path, something that I am sure was not accomplished by any of the other tornadoes that day.

View of the scouring from the subvortex. You can see the scoured concrete road in the background

20110524CANTONLAKE24.PNG

Another view of the scoured concrete road

20110524CANTONLAKE22.jpg

Severe tree debarking on the other side of Canton Lake. Tree debarking is usually done by debris. The tornado had been over the lake for a good 5-10 minutes before coming ashore. These trees were the first thing it came into contact with upon making landfall.

20110524CANTONLAKE20.PNG
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,121
Reaction score
4,581
Location
Colorado
Everybody talks about the big three, Goldsby, Chickasha, and the mighty El Reno Tornado. However, the first big tornado of the day has a very strong case for it being quite similar in intensity to the big three. Touching down at a camp lake near Canton Lake, the tornado rapidly intensified and severely damaged the camp as it moved offshore. The tornado passed near Longdale. One of the subvortexes within the tornado produced significant ground scouring and scoured a concrete road along a very narrow swath in this part of the path, something that I am sure was not accomplished by any of the other tornadoes that day.

View of the scouring from the subvortex. You can see the scoured concrete road in the background

View attachment 8415

Another view of the scoured concrete road

View attachment 8413

Severe tree debarking on the other side of Canton Lake. Tree debarking is usually done by debris. The tornado had been over the lake for a good 5-10 minutes before coming ashore. These trees were the first thing it came into contact with upon making landfall.

View attachment 8412
That thing should have been rated EF4 based on tree damage alone.
 

Marshal79344

Member
Messages
361
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Chicago, IL
I wouldn't doubt that the Louisville Tornado also reached EF5 intensity along its path. This tornado was produced by a completely discrete supercell without any interference from convection around it, unlike all the other major tornadoes on that day. I have a feeling that the discrete aspect of the parent supercell contributed somewhat to its violent intensity. There were several obvious violent tornado damage indicators all along the path, unlike any other tornado that day.

The Louisville Tornado as filmed from a home video when it was at its peak intensity southeast of the town.

20140428LOUISVILLEFUNNEL2.jpg

The Louisville Tornado as it was striking the suburbs. Note how it's shrouded in debris.

20140428LOUISVILLETORNADO.jpg

Some of the instances of debarking that the Louisville Tornado produced were absolutely extraordinary

20140428LOUISVILLE10.png
20140428LOUISVILLE15.jpg
20140428LOUISVILLE17.jpg

Damage Photos I have in my archives

20140428LOUISVILLE8.jpg

20140428LOUISVILLE10.jpg
20140428LOUISVILLE6.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20140428LOUISVILLE20.jpg
    20140428LOUISVILLE20.jpg
    136.2 KB · Views: 0
  • 20140428LOUISVILLE11.jpg
    20140428LOUISVILLE11.jpg
    144.1 KB · Views: 0

Nightking2021

Member
Messages
66
Reaction score
29
Location
Wichita, Kansas
I wouldn't doubt that the Louisville Tornado also reached EF5 intensity along its path. This tornado was produced by a completely discrete supercell without any interference from convection around it, unlike all the other major tornadoes on that day. I have a feeling that the discrete aspect of the parent supercell contributed somewhat to its violent intensity. There were several obvious violent tornado damage indicators all along the path, unlike any other tornado that day.

The Louisville Tornado as filmed from a home video when it was at its peak intensity southeast of the town.

View attachment 8417

The Louisville Tornado as it was striking the suburbs. Note how it's shrouded in debris.

View attachment 8416

Some of the instances of debarking that the Louisville Tornado produced were absolutely extraordinary

View attachment 8418
View attachment 8419
View attachment 8420

Damage Photos I have in my archives

View attachment 8422

View attachment 8423
View attachment 8425
The damage looks on par with Bassfield. It is almost certain that it reached EF5 intensity along its path. I would have rated the Louisville, MS tornado at least a high-end EF4.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,121
Reaction score
4,581
Location
Colorado
Here is another tornado in Louisville, MS that happened the day after Vilonia and is often overlooked. https://www.weather.gov/jan/2014_04_27_28_29_winston_tor
It got overshadowed due to all the (justified) bickering over the Vilonia rating, but yes, Louisville was definitely a high-end event. One specific thing that really, really interests me is what happened at the Eiland Plaza Apartments in town. Multiple large, two-story, well built and brick construction apartment buildings were absolutely flattened in that complex, and judging by some photos and aerial videos I have seen, at least one was reduced to a bare slab. If there wasn't some kind of glaring structural flaw, that would make it by far, the most intense damage ever done to an apartment building that I know of. Tuscaloosa/Birmingham and Joplin 2011 completely destroyed many apartment buildings, but even those two monster tornadoes didn't manage to sweep any of them away.
 
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
4,288
Location
Madison, WI
5/24/11 was an interesting day. Relatively few tornadoes, but a large proportion of them were extraordinarily violent (as or more so than any 27 days earlier). It was also odd in that there seemed to be a relatively narrow east-west area of favorable parameters (although the high risk area was much wider). Other than Lookeba followed by El Reno, the main supercells seemed to be one-and-done when it came to significant tornado production. This proved very fortunate for the OKC metro, as the Chickasha tornado was paralleling the path of the 5/3/99 one and dissipated just as it was on the verge of creating another major disaster in Moore/Norman/Newcastle two years ahead of when it ended up happening.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,121
Reaction score
4,581
Location
Colorado
Right there in that photo you posted, I circled the area of interest. That's Eiland Plaza, and that to me looks like a completely slabbed brick apartment building.
mz2YLmx.png


A fact check using the DAT confirms my suspicions. This thing slabbed an entire two story apartment building. Geez.
268003
 

pohnpei

Member
Messages
958
Reaction score
1,949
Location
shanghai
I wouldn't doubt that the Louisville Tornado also reached EF5 intensity along its path. This tornado was produced by a completely discrete supercell without any interference from convection around it, unlike all the other major tornadoes on that day. I have a feeling that the discrete aspect of the parent supercell contributed somewhat to its violent intensity. There were several obvious violent tornado damage indicators all along the path, unlike any other tornado that day.

The Louisville Tornado as filmed from a home video when it was at its peak intensity southeast of the town.

View attachment 8417

The Louisville Tornado as it was striking the suburbs. Note how it's shrouded in debris.

View attachment 8416

Some of the instances of debarking that the Louisville Tornado produced were absolutely extraordinary

View attachment 8418
View attachment 8419
View attachment 8420

Damage Photos I have in my archives

View attachment 8422

View attachment 8423
View attachment 8425
Do you have the link of the home video of the first pic you posted?
Several other pics to add
some ground scouring maybe?
6c809764c89bb7ff.jpg
ground view of the apartment area
e41b717c0f366686.jpg
softwood damage in the town
5fe607e9f1539336.jpg
EF4 tree damage from another view
21e4e7ceb2992dca.jpg
damage in rural area
58908946702357b1.jpg
engine from vehicle
a95c907588dac92f.png
scar of the tornado left
BnClHSRCYAA5APm.jpg


There was little damage photo can be found area of that 185mph rating house with incredible softwood debarking nearby except for two photos on damage viewer. That house seems very newly built but lack of additional construction details that I can find. Hope to find more.
 
Last edited:

pohnpei

Member
Messages
958
Reaction score
1,949
Location
shanghai
It got overshadowed due to all the (justified) bickering over the Vilonia rating, but yes, Louisville was definitely a high-end event. One specific thing that really, really interests me is what happened at the Eiland Plaza Apartments in town. Multiple large, two-story, well built and brick construction apartment buildings were absolutely flattened in that complex, and judging by some photos and aerial videos I have seen, at least one was reduced to a bare slab. If there wasn't some kind of glaring structural flaw, that would make it by far, the most intense damage ever done to an apartment building that I know of. Tuscaloosa/Birmingham and Joplin 2011 completely destroyed many apartment buildings, but even those two monster tornadoes didn't manage to sweep any of them away.
It seems that there was even no corresponding wind can be given to total destruction of the entire apartment building(even not swept away) in EF scale. Maybe it was considered impossible for tornados to do that damage? The total destruction of top two floors of very well built apartment building was already EF5 level. The Louisville's apartment building damage was rated 175mph. Some other cases like Washington IL's apartment building was rated 180mph, Tuscaloosa's apartment building was rated 190mph, Cookeville's apartment building was rated 170mph.(swept away?) There was several apartment building hit by Joplin but it seems like none of them was given EF4 rating in Tim Marshall's article.
277b708ec549387f.jpg
 

pohnpei

Member
Messages
958
Reaction score
1,949
Location
shanghai
Right there in that photo you posted, I circled the area of interest. That's Eiland Plaza, and that to me looks like a completely slabbed brick apartment building.
mz2YLmx.png


A fact check using the DAT confirms my suspicions. This thing slabbed an entire two story apartment building. Geez.
268003
Do you happen to know what's the big slab right side of the first pic used to be? I checked on damage viewer and it appears to me that the whole area had been given a general rating, not for each specific house, which is quite confusing.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,121
Reaction score
4,581
Location
Colorado
It seems that there was even no corresponding wind can be given to total destruction of the entire apartment building(even not swept away) in EF scale. Maybe it was considered impossible for tornados to do that damage? The total destruction of top two floors of very well built apartment building was already EF5 level. The Louisville's apartment building damage was rated 175mph. Some other cases like Washington IL's apartment building was rated 180mph, Tuscaloosa's apartment building was rated 190mph, Cookeville's apartment building was rated 170mph.(swept away?) There was several apartment building hit by Joplin but it seems like none of them was been given EF4 rating in Tim Marshall's article.
View attachment 8434
I forgot about Cookeville. That one kinda swept away an apartment building too, but just sort of threw the debris into a heap, and the lower story which was built into a hillside stayed intact, with vehicles in the parking lot pushed together, but not thrown. They rated it 170 MPH. IDK exactly what to make of it.
1277626

1277652
 
Back
Top