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Significant Tornado Events

Lake Martin EF4 said:
The "never question official ratings" energy is strong on this one.

Also, somewhat on topic:

How has this specific list changed since you made it in 2023? Have any tornadoes been added? Subtracted? I'd wager Ringgold would get an asterisk next to it if some of your more recent posts are any indication, and Alpena would also be an asterisked addition, but what else would be different?

As a bonus, what would a similar list look like for the 2000-2010 era?
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Good lord looking at the ones that are "questionable" versus not questionable is like a flashbang

Camp Crook as a definite EF5 ratable tornado is wild, among others
 
AJS said:
View attachment 44249
I used to be on the fence regarding if I thought the Monette/Samburg Tri State EF4 could have achieved EF5 strength, but after seeing this image of debarking new Buckeye, AR, I fully believe this tornado was 100% capable of producing more violent damage than what it was officially rated. That tree damage is well up there with the most violent ever seen.
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I'm prettyyyy sure these trees were dead, I've seen it thrown around a ton and I could definitely see where the idea is coming from.
 
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Lake Martin EF4 said:
The "never question official ratings" energy is strong on this one.

Also, somewhat on topic:

How has this specific list changed since you made it in 2023? Have any tornadoes been added? Subtracted? I'd wager Ringgold would get an asterisk next to it if some of your more recent posts are any indication, and Alpena would also be an asterisked addition, but what else would be different?

As a bonus, what would a similar list look like for the 2000-2010 era?
Click to expand...
As you command. The updated list including 2000-2010 tornadoes will soon be posted on the EF scale debate thread. Stay tuned...

Union said:
Good lord looking at the ones that are "questionable" versus not questionable is like a flashbang

Camp Crook as a definite EF5 ratable tornado is wild, among others
Click to expand...
Yeah that list hasn't held up as well as some of my other posts. Still, providing some actual evidence instead of just saying "OMG LIST BAD" would have been a better contribution IMO.

Union said:
I'm prettyyyy sure these trees were dead, I've seen it thrown around a ton and I could definitely see where the idea is coming from.
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There's literally nothing to suggest that. If you can prove with least a reasonable degree of certainty that those trees were dead before the tornado, I'll gladly eat crow though.

edit: Toned it down a bit, I'm already in an irritable mood tonight
 
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TH2002 said:
As you command. The updated list including 2000-2010 tornadoes will soon be posted on the EF scale debate thread. Stay tuned...


Yeah that list hasn't held up as well as some of my other posts. Still, providing some actual evidence instead of just saying "OMG LIST BAD" would have been a better contribution IMO.


There's literally nothing to suggest that. If you can prove with least a reasonable degree of certainty that those trees were dead before the tornado, I'll gladly eat crow though.

edit: Toned it down a bit, I'm already in an irritable mood tonight
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Chill out bro The list was made 2 years ago, 2 years ago I didn't even know Parkersburg existed, also Camp Crook was rated EF3 136mph, I think even based off trees, I thought it was pretty fair game to like fun and say it's not a ratable EF5 (it is a viotor though because that tractor stuff is pretty wild) but my bad hands up

Also for the dead trees stuff, I'm just putting it out there, I've heard it tossed around in echo chambers for the last year so maybe someone here who knows more about trees than me could comment on it idk, I think there's wilder tree stuff from Monette while it was in Tennessee anyway around Reelfoot Lake and the last EF4 DI

Also side note does anyone remember those trees (debarked ones above) being rated EF4? I could've sworn they were and I've seen people say it before but they're like EF3/140 on the DAT
 
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Union said:
Chill out bro The list was made 2 years ago, 2 years ago I didn't even know Parkersburg existed, also Camp Crook was rated EF3 136mph, I think even based off trees, I thought it was pretty fair game to like fun and say it's not a ratable EF5 (it is a viotor though because that tractor stuff is pretty wild) but my bad hands up

Also for the dead trees stuff, I'm just putting it out there, I've heard it tossed around in echo chambers for the last year so maybe someone here who knows more about trees than me could comment on it idk, I think there's wilder tree stuff from Monette while it was in Tennessee anyway around Reelfoot Lake and the last EF4 DI

Also side note does anyone remember those trees (debarked ones above) being rated EF4? I could've sworn they were and I've seen people say it before but they're like EF3/140 on the DAT
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Those trees were always rated EF3 actually. MEG is one of those offices that doesn’t “do” EF4 vegetation damage. That’s just one unfortunate bullet point in a long list of issues that that cement MEG as one of the least reliable, reasonable, or intuitive survey teams around imo, and that’s an opinion shared by others. Conversely, JAN hands out EF4 ratings for tree damage like candy on Halloween. The other Jackson office (Kentucky) also handed out some EF4 ratings to trees following the recent London tornado.

Anyway, regarding the dead vs. living trees debate, those trees in that grove hit by the Tri-state EF4 were 100% alive. How can I tell? The answer is the color of the wood underneath the bark. When a healthy, living tree loses its bark, the wood underneath will be a pale, light yellowish color. When a dead tree is debarked, the wood underneath will have a dull beige or sickly gray color. It’s a pretty reliable way of telling, with the exception of some evergreen trees, which may occasionally have a layer of grayish wood underneath their bark, even if they are very much alive, but I have only seen this a few times.
 
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buckeye05 said:
Those trees were always rated EF3 actually. MEG is one of those offices that doesn’t “do” EF4 vegetation damage. That’s just one unfortunate bullet point in a long list of issues that that cement MEG as one of the least reliable, reasonable, or intuitive survey teams around imo, and that’s an opinion shared by others. Conversely, JAN hands out EF4 ratings for tree damage like candy on Halloween. The other Jackson office (Kentucky) also handed out some EF4 ratings to trees following the recent London tornado.

Anyway, regarding the dead vs. living trees debate, those trees in that grove hit by the Tri-state EF4 were 100% alive. How can I tell? The answer is the color of the wood underneath the bark. When a healthy, living tree loses its bark, the wood underneath will be a pale, light yellowish color. When a dead tree is debarked, the wood underneath will have a dull beige or sickly gray color. It’s a pretty reliable way of telling, with the exception of some evergreen trees, which may occasionally have a layer of grayish wood underneath their bark, even if they are very much alive, but I have only seen this a few times.
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EF4 trees are so inconsistent, like you mention, Jackson (Kentucky) used the DI absolutely perfectly around the first EF4 DI in the Daniel Boone Forest a little past Somerset, the house wasn't very good but they upgraded it to 170 based on the trees, and the trees were exactly what you'd expect is "worthy" of the rating. But Paducah the same day, handed out a 166mph tree DI to the trees after the 190 house in Marion (which that rating is a whole different debate), and they weren't nearly as violent as the London trees or even trees I've seen in normal EF3s, despite being blasted by debris from at least 3 different houses, and then in the 190 house description they say the trees were used as an upgrade confidence builder.


Trees are weird
 
Union said:
EF4 trees are so inconsistent, like you mention, Jackson (Kentucky) used the DI absolutely perfectly around the first EF4 DI in the Daniel Boone Forest a little past Somerset, the house wasn't very good but they upgraded it to 170 based on the trees, and the trees were exactly what you'd expect is "worthy" of the rating. But Paducah the same day, handed out a 166mph tree DI to the trees after the 190 house in Marion (which that rating is a whole different debate), and they weren't nearly as violent as the London trees or even trees I've seen in normal EF3s, despite being blasted by debris from at least 3 different houses, and then in the 190 house description they say the trees were used as an upgrade confidence builder.


Trees are weird
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Marion may honestly be the most overrated tornado since Newnan, GA. When the 190 MPH EF4 rating was released, I was very shocked and assumed that there must have been extensive use of foundation straps, metal wall stud clips, or other reinforcements utilized to negate the weak point at the wall/subfloor connection, which exists at any home of this construction type. But apparently that’s not the case, and it was just a regular old basement/subfloor foundation home with no extra reinforcements present. There was some stubbing and wind-rowing, but otherwise the contextual damage was not particularly extreme either. Just a really strange call by NWS Paducah.
 
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buckeye05 said:
Marion may honestly be the most overrated tornado since Newnan, GA. When the 190 MPH EF4 rating was released, I was very shocked and assumed that there must have been extensive use of foundation straps, metal wall stud clips, or other reinforcements utilized to negate the weak point at the wall/subfloor connection, which exists at any home of this construction type. But apparently that’s not the case, and it was just a regular old basement/subfloor foundation home with no extra reinforcements present. There was some stubbing and wind-rowing, but otherwise the contextual damage was not particularly extreme either. Just a really strange call by NWS Paducah.
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Is this "EF4 was too high" or "low end EF4 was OK but 190 was too high"?
 
buckeye05 said:
Those trees were always rated EF3 actually. MEG is one of those offices that doesn’t “do” EF4 vegetation damage. That’s just one unfortunate bullet point in a long list of issues that that cement MEG as one of the least reliable, reasonable, or intuitive survey teams around imo, and that’s an opinion shared by others. Conversely, JAN hands out EF4 ratings for tree damage like candy on Halloween. The other Jackson office (Kentucky) also handed out some EF4 ratings to trees following the recent London tornado.

Anyway, regarding the dead vs. living trees debate, those trees in that grove hit by the Tri-state EF4 were 100% alive. How can I tell? The answer is the color of the wood underneath the bark. When a healthy, living tree loses its bark, the wood underneath will be a pale, light yellowish color. When a dead tree is debarked, the wood underneath will have a dull beige or sickly gray color. It’s a pretty reliable way of telling, with the exception of some evergreen trees, which may occasionally have a layer of grayish wood underneath their bark, even if they are very much alive, but I have only seen this a few times.
Click to expand...
I work at a fruit tree nursery, and yes, you are 100 percent correct
 
buckeye05 said:
Marion may honestly be the most overrated tornado since Newnan, GA. When the 190 MPH EF4 rating was released, I was very shocked and assumed that there must have been extensive use of foundation straps, metal wall stud clips, or other reinforcements utilized to negate the weak point at the wall/subfloor connection, which exists at any home of this construction type. But apparently that’s not the case, and it was just a regular old basement/subfloor foundation home with no extra reinforcements present. There was some stubbing and wind-rowing, but otherwise the contextual damage was not particularly extreme either. Just a really strange call by NWS Paducah.
Click to expand...
Maybe the studs were toe nailed or 16D nails were used? I have a post saved from @Sawmaster talking about how strong and sheer resistant both those methods are. That'd also explain the subfloor with a 180 mph rating in Greenfield.
 
1) How many years have had multiple days on which more than one F5 tornado occurred?

Officially, never

Unofficially, 2011. In addition to the obvious (4/27), 5/24 very obviously produced 3 and possibly 4 (Canton Lake) EF5 level tornadoes.

Also unofficially: 1965 - Palm Sunday, of course, but 5/8/1965 saw both the official F5 in Colome, SD as well as a - per sources anyway - probable F5 near Wolbach, NE.

Here's a local news video talking about the 50th anniversary of the Wolbach-Primose tornado

And those 2 years are it.

2) How many times in tornadic history have F5 or EF5 tornadoes occurred on back-to-back days?

Officially, never.

Unofficially, there are 3 strong possibilities:

June 8-9th, 1953 (Flint, MI followed by Worcester)

April 27th-28th, 2014 (Vilonia followed by Louisville, MS)

and possibly: May 19-20th, 2013 (Shawnee followed by Moore)

Here's a post from locomusic01 a while ago about Shawnee. Talk about an overshadowed tornado. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-77461
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Maybe the studs were toe nailed or 16D nails were used? I have a post saved from @Sawmaster talking about how strong and sheer resistant both those methods are. That'd also explain the subfloor with a 180 mph rating in Greenfield.
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Ah that’s certainly possible. It’s just that I haven’t heard anything to confirm that it was anything beyond a standard subfloor with standard connections, and even with above and beyond nailing techniques, 180 MPH would make more sense than 190 MPH. The same forecast office rated the Bremen damage at the same wind speed estimate, and that damage was in a whole different league severity wise. It’s just odd any way you look at it.
 
Aaron Rider said:
1) How many years have had multiple days on which more than one F5 tornado occurred?

Officially, never

Unofficially, 2011. In addition to the obvious (4/27), 5/24 very obviously produced 3 and possibly 4 (Canton Lake) EF5 level tornadoes.

Also unofficially: 1965 - Palm Sunday, of course, but 5/8/1965 saw both the official F5 in Colome, SD as well as a - per sources anyway - probable F5 near Wolbach, NE.

Here's a local news video talking about the 50th anniversary of the Wolbach-Primose tornado

And those 2 years are it.

2) How many times in tornadic history have F5 or EF5 tornadoes occurred on back-to-back days?

Officially, never.

Unofficially, there are 3 strong possibilities:

June 8-9th, 1953 (Flint, MI followed by Worcester)

April 27th-28th, 2014 (Vilonia followed by Louisville, MS)

and possibly: May 19-20th, 2013 (Shawnee followed by Moore)

Here's a post from locomusic01 a while ago about Shawnee. Talk about an overshadowed tornado. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-77461
Click to expand...

Goldsby is so obviously an EF5 i'd just say that 2011 is the first year to do it, the reasonings behind not giving some homes EF5 are crazy in that tornado.
 
Aaron Rider said:
1) How many years have had multiple days on which more than one F5 tornado occurred?

Officially, never

Unofficially, 2011. In addition to the obvious (4/27), 5/24 very obviously produced 3 and possibly 4 (Canton Lake) EF5 level tornadoes.

Also unofficially: 1965 - Palm Sunday, of course, but 5/8/1965 saw both the official F5 in Colome, SD as well as a - per sources anyway - probable F5 near Wolbach, NE.

Here's a local news video talking about the 50th anniversary of the Wolbach-Primose tornado

And those 2 years are it.

2) How many times in tornadic history have F5 or EF5 tornadoes occurred on back-to-back days?

Officially, never.

Unofficially, there are 3 strong possibilities:

June 8-9th, 1953 (Flint, MI followed by Worcester)

April 27th-28th, 2014 (Vilonia followed by Louisville, MS)

and possibly: May 19-20th, 2013 (Shawnee followed by Moore)

Here's a post from locomusic01 a while ago about Shawnee. Talk about an overshadowed tornado. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-77461
Click to expand...

Here's a screen capture from that little local Nebraska news video about the Primrose tornado. Some gentleman managed to capture a brief home video of the twister! Note the ominous horizontal vortex.

Primrose.jpg
 
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