Union
Member
I'm prettyyyy sure these trees were dead, I've seen it thrown around a ton and I could definitely see where the idea is coming from.
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Significant Tornado Events
- Thread starter locomusic01
- Start date
AJS
Member
Really?? I did not know that. I’ve heard trees lined up like that are typically alive.
TH2002
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As you command. The updated list including 2000-2010 tornadoes will soon be posted on the EF scale debate thread. Stay tuned...
Yeah that list hasn't held up as well as some of my other posts. Still, providing some actual evidence instead of just saying "OMG LIST BAD" would have been a better contribution IMO.
There's literally nothing to suggest that. If you can prove with least a reasonable degree of certainty that those trees were dead before the tornado, I'll gladly eat crow though.
edit: Toned it down a bit, I'm already in an irritable mood tonight
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Union
Member
Chill out bro The list was made 2 years ago, 2 years ago I didn't even know Parkersburg existed, also Camp Crook was rated EF3 136mph, I think even based off trees, I thought it was pretty fair game to like fun and say it's not a ratable EF5 (it is a viotor though because that tractor stuff is pretty wild) but my bad hands up
Also for the dead trees stuff, I'm just putting it out there, I've heard it tossed around in echo chambers for the last year so maybe someone here who knows more about trees than me could comment on it idk, I think there's wilder tree stuff from Monette while it was in Tennessee anyway around Reelfoot Lake and the last EF4 DI
Also side note does anyone remember those trees (debarked ones above) being rated EF4? I could've sworn they were and I've seen people say it before but they're like EF3/140 on the DAT
Those trees were always rated EF3 actually. MEG is one of those offices that doesn’t “do” EF4 vegetation damage. That’s just one unfortunate bullet point in a long list of issues that that cement MEG as one of the least reliable, reasonable, or intuitive survey teams around imo, and that’s an opinion shared by others. Conversely, JAN hands out EF4 ratings for tree damage like candy on Halloween. The other Jackson office (Kentucky) also handed out some EF4 ratings to trees following the recent London tornado.
Anyway, regarding the dead vs. living trees debate, those trees in that grove hit by the Tri-state EF4 were 100% alive. How can I tell? The answer is the color of the wood underneath the bark. When a healthy, living tree loses its bark, the wood underneath will be a pale, light yellowish color. When a dead tree is debarked, the wood underneath will have a dull beige or sickly gray color. It’s a pretty reliable way of telling, with the exception of some evergreen trees, which may occasionally have a layer of grayish wood underneath their bark, even if they are very much alive, but I have only seen this a few times.
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Union
Member
EF4 trees are so inconsistent, like you mention, Jackson (Kentucky) used the DI absolutely perfectly around the first EF4 DI in the Daniel Boone Forest a little past Somerset, the house wasn't very good but they upgraded it to 170 based on the trees, and the trees were exactly what you'd expect is "worthy" of the rating. But Paducah the same day, handed out a 166mph tree DI to the trees after the 190 house in Marion (which that rating is a whole different debate), and they weren't nearly as violent as the London trees or even trees I've seen in normal EF3s, despite being blasted by debris from at least 3 different houses, and then in the 190 house description they say the trees were used as an upgrade confidence builder.
Trees are weird
Marion may honestly be the most overrated tornado since Newnan, GA. When the 190 MPH EF4 rating was released, I was very shocked and assumed that there must have been extensive use of foundation straps, metal wall stud clips, or other reinforcements utilized to negate the weak point at the wall/subfloor connection, which exists at any home of this construction type. But apparently that’s not the case, and it was just a regular old basement/subfloor foundation home with no extra reinforcements present. There was some stubbing and wind-rowing, but otherwise the contextual damage was not particularly extreme either. Just a really strange call by NWS Paducah.
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Lake Martin EF4
Member
Is this "EF4 was too high" or "low end EF4 was OK but 190 was too high"?
AJS
Member
I think 170 would have been a perfect rating for Marion.
Aaron Rider
Member
I work at a fruit tree nursery, and yes, you are 100 percent correct
Grand Poo Bah
Member
Maybe the studs were toe nailed or 16D nails were used? I have a post saved from @Sawmaster talking about how strong and sheer resistant both those methods are. That'd also explain the subfloor with a 180 mph rating in Greenfield.
Aaron Rider
Member
1) How many years have had multiple days on which more than one F5 tornado occurred?
Officially, never
Unofficially, 2011. In addition to the obvious (4/27), 5/24 very obviously produced 3 and possibly 4 (Canton Lake) EF5 level tornadoes.
Also unofficially: 1965 - Palm Sunday, of course, but 5/8/1965 saw both the official F5 in Colome, SD as well as a - per sources anyway - probable F5 near Wolbach, NE.
Here's a local news video talking about the 50th anniversary of the Wolbach-Primose tornado
And those 2 years are it.
2) How many times in tornadic history have F5 or EF5 tornadoes occurred on back-to-back days?
Officially, never.
Unofficially, there are 3 strong possibilities:
June 8-9th, 1953 (Flint, MI followed by Worcester)
April 27th-28th, 2014 (Vilonia followed by Louisville, MS)
and possibly: May 19-20th, 2013 (Shawnee followed by Moore)
Here's a post from locomusic01 a while ago about Shawnee. Talk about an overshadowed tornado. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-77461
Officially, never
Unofficially, 2011. In addition to the obvious (4/27), 5/24 very obviously produced 3 and possibly 4 (Canton Lake) EF5 level tornadoes.
Also unofficially: 1965 - Palm Sunday, of course, but 5/8/1965 saw both the official F5 in Colome, SD as well as a - per sources anyway - probable F5 near Wolbach, NE.
Here's a local news video talking about the 50th anniversary of the Wolbach-Primose tornado
And those 2 years are it.
2) How many times in tornadic history have F5 or EF5 tornadoes occurred on back-to-back days?
Officially, never.
Unofficially, there are 3 strong possibilities:
June 8-9th, 1953 (Flint, MI followed by Worcester)
April 27th-28th, 2014 (Vilonia followed by Louisville, MS)
and possibly: May 19-20th, 2013 (Shawnee followed by Moore)
Here's a post from locomusic01 a while ago about Shawnee. Talk about an overshadowed tornado. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-77461
Ah that’s certainly possible. It’s just that I haven’t heard anything to confirm that it was anything beyond a standard subfloor with standard connections, and even with above and beyond nailing techniques, 180 MPH would make more sense than 190 MPH. The same forecast office rated the Bremen damage at the same wind speed estimate, and that damage was in a whole different league severity wise. It’s just odd any way you look at it.
Union
Member
Goldsby is so obviously an EF5 i'd just say that 2011 is the first year to do it, the reasonings behind not giving some homes EF5 are crazy in that tornado.
Aaron Rider
Member
Here's a screen capture from that little local Nebraska news video about the Primrose tornado. Some gentleman managed to capture a brief home video of the twister! Note the ominous horizontal vortex.
Never seen this, great find. Is the actual video available anywhere online?
Aaron Rider
Member
It certainly appears so. Thanks!
TH2002
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I don't think there's anything that unusual in this video.
Nothing at all.
Just an EF3 tornado with patches of snow still on the ground.
Have you seen this video? Probably. Guess what, it's the same tornado!
To be more specific, this tornado occurred on January 7, 2008. It was one of two EF3 rated tornadoes to strike northeastern Illinois and southeastern Wisconsin this day.
The train derailment was rated EF2 while the tornado's maximum damage rating of high-end EF3 was assigned to a home that was swept away:
A pile of snow with tornado debris on it:
The second EF3 to touch down in NWS Milwaukee's forecast area that day struck Wheatland, WI. Many homes were damaged along the path, of which 29 were destroyed (mostly in Wheatland). A few of the destroyed homes were leveled. The survey specifically mentions that the tornado tracked over frozen ponds and creeks as well as piles of snow, much like the first EF3. Fifteen people were injured (the NCEI database says five, likely an error).
Interesting note about this particular DI: "For a couple homes, the visual damage suggested an EF4 rating, however insufficient anchoring allowed these structures to fail at a lower wind speed. Additionally, other nearby damage indicators didn't support an EF4 rating." Make of that what you will:
The third and final tornado from this supercell struck the northern fringes of Kenosha.
Though it was rated EF1, some of the damage looked EF2, especially since a few homes had their roofs completely torn off and some damage to upper floor exterior walls.
Nothing at all.
Just an EF3 tornado with patches of snow still on the ground.
Have you seen this video? Probably. Guess what, it's the same tornado!
To be more specific, this tornado occurred on January 7, 2008. It was one of two EF3 rated tornadoes to strike northeastern Illinois and southeastern Wisconsin this day.
The train derailment was rated EF2 while the tornado's maximum damage rating of high-end EF3 was assigned to a home that was swept away:
A pile of snow with tornado debris on it:
The second EF3 to touch down in NWS Milwaukee's forecast area that day struck Wheatland, WI. Many homes were damaged along the path, of which 29 were destroyed (mostly in Wheatland). A few of the destroyed homes were leveled. The survey specifically mentions that the tornado tracked over frozen ponds and creeks as well as piles of snow, much like the first EF3. Fifteen people were injured (the NCEI database says five, likely an error).
Interesting note about this particular DI: "For a couple homes, the visual damage suggested an EF4 rating, however insufficient anchoring allowed these structures to fail at a lower wind speed. Additionally, other nearby damage indicators didn't support an EF4 rating." Make of that what you will:
The third and final tornado from this supercell struck the northern fringes of Kenosha.
Though it was rated EF1, some of the damage looked EF2, especially since a few homes had their roofs completely torn off and some damage to upper floor exterior walls.
CheeselandSkies
Member
I remember that January, 2008 outbreak quite well. I was home from college on winter break at the time, but the warm sector only nosed into far southern/southeastern Wisconsin so we just got cold rain. I have seen that train derailment video many times. It occurred near Lawrence, IL along the Union Pacific Harvard Subdivision which runs to Janesville, Wisconsin. It was just west of where Metra passenger service terminates at Harvard. At the time it still served the General Motors assembly plant in Janesville, although they would soon announce its impending closure.