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Significant Tornado Events

Just a bit of a random question for all of y’all, but it’s something that has been on my mind for a while to ask. What is the most insane instance of tree debarking we have seen from the most violent of tornadoes? For me if I had to choose, the top three that come to my mind are the Bassfield tornado, Piedmont 2011 Tornado, and Smithville 2011.
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As I showed before, Tri-State debarked hundreds of young persimmon trees, a very durable hardwood species with the same Janka Hardness rating as Mesquites. What is more impressive is that it did this in an isolated rural area with little to no debris. It also appears that many of these trees were lofted.
 
View attachment 31592
As I showed before, Tri-State debarked hundreds of young persimmon trees, a very durable hardwood species with the same Janka Hardness rating as Mesquites. What is more impressive is that it did this in an isolated rural area with little to no debris. It also appears that many of these trees were lofted.
THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL INCREDIBLE PHENOMENA. I WONDER WHAT THE HIGHEST WINDS WERE IN THIS TORNADO.
 
It is very difficult to achieve that level of destruction to a downtown area of any modestly sized town, era notwithstanding (especially considering many buildings in these downtown areas in non-urban regions are of similar age). I mean look at Sulphur this year. That tornado was bad, but it wasn't even close to how complete the devastation is with New Richmond.

Mayfield? Also very bad, but still not as complete in terms of devastation. West Liberty KY is not even close.

Another frightening thought is that tornado tracking 35-45 miles further west, effectively erasing a section of Minneapolis/St. Paul and their suburbs.
Imagine what would've happened if a tornado like Jarrell tracked through a populated downtown area.
 
Long long ago I remember reading somewhere that tornadoes couldn't exceed ~400MPH or they'd basically fly apart. We know they can top 300MPH and it's not a far stretch to consider 350.

The real question is whether that would be enough to get an EF 5 rating but that's a discussion for another forum
 
I tend to wonder if 350+ mph is possible in extremely rare instances.
I believe in extremely intense tornadoes that instantaneous gusts in subvortices can reach those wind speeds briefly. In Greenfield where the highest wind velocities were damage wasn’t near the level of Joplin, Moore, Parkersburg etc. So I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to say that a handful of past EF5’s have come close to or momentarily reached 350mph.
 
I believe in extremely intense tornadoes that instantaneous gusts in subvortices can reach those wind speeds briefly. In Greenfield where the highest wind velocities were damage wasn’t near the level of Joplin, Moore, Parkersburg etc. So I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to say that a handful of past EF5’s have come close to or momentarily reached 350mph.
Jarrell is likely one of the few instances where wind speeds 350+ likely occurred.
Wouldn't surprise me if Smithville achieved that too.
 
Jarrell is likely one of the few instances where wind speeds 350+ likely occurred.
Wouldn't surprise me if Smithville achieved that too.
If I had to make an educated guess on some F5-EF5 tornadoes I feel reached 350+ wind speeds, I’d say Jarrell, Parkersburg, El Reno 2011, BC-Moore 1999, Smithville, Tri State, New Richmond, and Sherman are all some tornadoes I wouldn’t be surprised hit 350+. That’s just my educated guess though.
 
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If I had to make an educated guess on some F5-EF5 tornadoes I feel reached 350+ wind speeds, I’d say Jarrell, Parkersburg, El Reno 2011, BC-Moore 1999, Smithville, Tri State, New Richmond, and Sherman are all some tornadoes I wouldn’t be surprised but 350+. That’s just my educated guess though.
I’ll throw in Moore 2013 as another one I feel like reached that caliber of strength. The ground scouring in some areas were very Jarrell reminiscent.
 
If I had to make an educated guess on some F5-EF5 tornadoes I feel reached 350+ wind speeds, I’d say Jarrell, Parkersburg, El Reno 2011, BC-Moore 1999, Smithville, Tri State, New Richmond, and Sherman are all some tornadoes I wouldn’t be surprised but 350+. That’s just my educated guess though.
I've been thinking this question for a while as well which is what's the maximum potential intensity tornado can reach on earth and what factor determine it.

There was very few valuable research about this topic but the more I learn the more I feel this paper in 2017 should be taken more seriously

I know it's just a simulation but one may need to give it a read with the comparison of this paper about hurricanes
Screenshot_2024-11-22-09-00-27-854_cn.wps.moffice_eng-edit.jpg
Basically they used the same method so they were very comparable and we have much better observation for hurricanes than tornados. The Daniel P. Stern and George H. Bryan paper in 2018 seemed to produce unreasonablely large gusts on surface. But after further analyzing, one would see it's actually in quite good agreement with the observations we have. This is the reason why I said we need to take David S. Nolan's paper in 2017 more seriously even it's just a simulation.

Then, in this paper, we will find that the SR005 simulation with lower swirl ratio and smaller core of tornado than control simulation presented highest winds.
Screenshot_2024-11-22-09-45-28-761_cn.wps.moffice_eng-edit.jpg
This feature alone is in good agreement with what we see in reality which further enhance my confidence in it cause most EF5 tornados we've seen in reality tend to have a small core.(vertical components in this type of tornados are vastly stronger than tornados with larger swirl ratio).

The simulation showed mean 3s horizontal winds well over 130m/s and mean 3s vertical winds well over 120m/s in a 5min span. When the vortex being the strongest, it even had over 220m/s instantaneous horizontal winds and over 225m/s vertical winds at the same time.

Also you will find in this paper that with friction increased, the peak winds only slightly increased compared with no friction simulation which also well accord with other researches.
Screenshot_2024-11-22-09-45-48-218_cn.wps.moffice_eng-edit.jpg
The one biggest question here is could any tornado in history once had azimuthal-mean wind of 104.9m/s which is the initial input of SR005 simulation? In Mulhall tornado, we see 84m/s azimuthal-mean wind at 0310z and in Spencer there was similar results which are already pretty extreme but we know that it's highly unlikely that Mulhall or Spencer were the strongest tornado ever. Still, one couldnt say for certain that there ever exist a tornado with that strong azimuthal-mean wind.
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The second problem is what role will debris play into this circumstances. There were
contradictory results about its impact on tornado wind speed, mainly between the Lewellen 2008 paper and Shawness tornado 2020 paper. But one thing for certain is debris can only enhanced the damage potential or the overall momentum regardless of wind speed.

Finally, why DOW never detected winds that extreme like in simulations? One biggest point is there is almost no vertical component winds on radar when it's scanning at lower angle. The second one is they don't get true ground wind speed at 99.9% time. The third point is what DOW detected is the reflectivity-weighted mean velocity in certain volume rather actual air flow.

Even with all these papers and researchs, one should still know that we are far from truly know about tornados' actual winds and either speculation can be correct.
 
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I didn't read the entire 2017 paper but I did notice that surface roughness has a substantial effect on surface wind potential which would explain the intense effects at Jarrell. Also the finding that the most intense winds are within ~20m of the core and the effect of eddies could help to explain where many EF5 ratings were denied due to contextual damage being less just past that distance. There were several other points I felt were interesting but were too deep for me to handle in my middle-of-the-night waking state of insomnia. Now that we have far more DOW data to use than in 2017 it certainly does need to be revisited.
 
I tend to wonder if 350+ mph is possible in extremely rare instances.
i think the famous paper that is behind a paywall has a calculated corrected wind speed line to the EF rating damage and it had EF2 starting point exactly at 163-165 mph , if you were to extend this line until it reaches EF5 it would go to 390 mph.
1732361469640.png

while i find this a bit iffy i do find it is still closer to the real wind speed to the NWS damage rating but likely slightly under this AMS paper but over the damage rating

el reno 2011 had some sort of 180 MS (400+ mph) wind speed measurement in one paper , unsure if this is gate to gate or not since this was me looking at it about to go to sleep, probably should try to find this.
 
i think the famous paper that is behind a paywall has a calculated corrected wind speed line to the EF rating damage and it had EF2 starting point exactly at 163-165 mph , if you were to extend this line until it reaches EF5 it would go to 390 mph.
View attachment 31602

while i find this a bit iffy i do find it is still closer to the real wind speed to the NWS damage rating but likely slightly under this AMS paper but over the damage rating

el reno 2011 had some sort of 180 MS (400+ mph) wind speed measurement in one paper , unsure if this is gate to gate or not since this was me looking at it about to go to sleep, probably should try to find this.
1732362650422.png
ah here it is its gate to gate i think.

meaning the maximum (min wise) wind speed was at 206+ mph in one side
 
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