Significant Tornado Events

[slenker]

On El Reno I'm not sure if Team Twistex was in the most powerful subvortex or not. Given the scale involved it would have been easy to miss a small intense subvortex that we'd likely find today due to drones now doing most of the aerial surveying and getting much better pics than they did back then. There is still contention on whether small subvortex damage should count toward tornado ratings, but a I see it they're integral to the tornado at the core and if you're assessing damages then they should be included. Just another part of the EF system which could be improved.

I do doubt that the most powerful subvortex managed to strike the vehicle. It was probably one of the strongest ones, but I imagine it is statistically unlikely that it was the strongest.

The main thing that gets me is the lack of ground scouring or grass scouring that this tornado inflicted. We’ve seen tornadoes cause scouring in open fields with no structures nearby, so I don’t think the lack of scouring is because of the lack of structures. Which points to my third point, where the forward speed of a storm causes a different type of damage; the subvortex containing 300 mph winds was slingshotted and contained a forward translational speed of ~177 mph. This is probably why the vehicle damage managed to be really violent, it’s a small object that could be tossed, so the violent nature of the windspeeds could be realized through that outlet of damage.

But if a home was struck by this subvortex, I don’t think it would do super violent damage. The winds would have only impacted a home for less than half a second, and the fact that the 300 mph winds have a major translational (horizontal) component to them would probably be detrimental to the process of inflicting anything above EF3 damage.

There’s also very little instances of debarking, which I find strange. However, this could be due to the fact that the tornado just didn’t impact enough large vegetation to get a good idea of what it would have done.

These factors are mostly speculation by me though, aided by some things other researchers have said, and my understanding of how the wind direction affects damage.

It’s a fascinating tornado to analyze for sure. If you’re going off of what the tornado did based strictly off the contingencies of the scale, EF3 is completely valid. But if we’re going off of the Twistex vehicle and some isolated instances of debarking/grass damage, then a violent rating (still not EF5) is acceptable to me too.

edit: also, subvortices should absolutely be included in damage surveys. It’s a fundamental part of nearly every tornado.

 

[TH2002]

Does anyone have imagery of impressive damage from the 2013 El Reno tornado? I have never seen a single picture from that event that comes close to a violent intensity (with exception to the Twistex car, which is pretty violent vehicle damage) which leads me to believe that

1. It's an extraordinarily overrated tornado in intensity, especially by the general public.
2. Extreme windspeeds (>300 mph) are capable of occurring in tornadoes that are not capable of inflicting violent damage on the ground.
3. Forward speeds of a tornado can determine the type of damage it will inflict, not just the intensity of it. (This point is very nuanced and likely true, in my eyes.)

I want to know if I have the wrong ideas about this, or simply haven't seen the higher end damage this thing did. I honestly am against this thing receiving an EF5 rating and don't even think I'd support it being granted EF4, and I am definitely in the minority from what I have seen on the internet in that regard.

Also, just because I believe it's extremely overrated in intensity doesn't mean I believe it wasn't one of the most dangerous tornadoes to chase of all time. It makes complete sense to me why people were caught so off-guard by this thing, and even chasers passed away from it. I definitely wouldn't put it into the most powerful tornadoes ever recorded but I most certainly would put it as a top 3 most dangerous tornado to chase that we have seen.

The El Reno tornado denuded and partially debarked some trees and caused vehicle damage of a caliber that really isn't seen in less-than-violent tornadoes:

While I don't think the storm caused enough violent damage to earn an EF5 rating, the most intense vegetation and vehicle damage is nothing inconsistent with EF4 imo.

 

[Tanner]

The El Reno tornado denuded and partially debarked some trees and caused vehicle damage of a caliber that really isn't seen in less-than-violent tornadoes:

While I don't think the storm caused enough violent damage to earn an EF5 rating, the most intense vegetation and vehicle damage is nothing inconsistent with EF4 imo.

This is the first time I’ve seen this level of damage from El Reno 2013.

 

[SpotlightForRareTornadoes]

How the Finger of God Dynasty went out with a Bang

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Does anyone have imagery of impressive damage from the 2013 El Reno tornado? I have never seen a single picture from that event that comes close to a violent intensity (with exception to the Twistex car, which is pretty violent vehicle damage) which leads me to believe that

1. It's an extraordinarily overrated tornado in intensity, especially by the general public.
2. Extreme windspeeds (>300 mph) are capable of occurring in tornadoes that are not capable of inflicting violent damage on the ground.
3. Forward speeds of a tornado can determine the type of damage it will inflict, not just the intensity of it. (This point is very nuanced and likely true, in my eyes.)

I want to know if I have the wrong ideas about this, or simply haven't seen the higher end damage this thing did. I honestly am against this thing receiving an EF5 rating and don't even think I'd support it being granted EF4, and I am definitely in the minority from what I have seen on the internet in that regard.

Also, just because I believe it's extremely overrated in intensity doesn't mean I believe it wasn't one of the most dangerous tornadoes to chase of all time. It makes complete sense to me why people were caught so off-guard by this thing, and even chasers passed away from it. I definitely wouldn't put it into the most powerful tornadoes ever recorded but I most certainly would put it as a top 3 most dangerous tornado to chase that we have seen.

El Reno 2013 did produce some really remarkable vehicle damage, several vehicles were literally pulverized and ripped to pieces. Random bits of vehicles landed for miles across open fields, particularly past Highway 81. The frame of the vehicle in the second photo according the owner apparently landed 2-3 miles away from his residence. This is almost surely the result of subvortices, but it’s very clear extreme winds (likely around 300mph) were present to cause such violent vehicle damage.

 

[TH2002]

El Reno 2013 did produce some really remarkable vehicle damage, several vehicles were literally pulverized and ripped to pieces. Random bits of vehicles landed for miles across open fields, particularly past Highway 81. The frame of the vehicle in the second photo according the owner apparently landed 2-3 miles away from his residence. This is almost surely the result of subvortices, but it’s very clear extreme winds (likely around 300mph) were present to cause such violent vehicle damage.

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Just an FYI - the first photo is actually from the 2009 Kirksville, MO "EF2" (shoulda-been EF3) and I suspect it's actually a small flatbed trailer. Still, impressive stuff.

 

[IdaliaHelene]

I'm reading through the Ontario section of the article and for the first time, looking over the affected areas on Google Maps. Speaking of nightmare "duckpins" scenarios, the trajectory of the supercells/tornado families this day was such that if one had been a little further to the south, it could have directly hit portions of Kitchener, Guelph, Mississauga (or Brampton), Toronto (or Markham) and Oshawa.

Do you have any more info on Brampton tornado history

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Just an FYI - the first photo is actually from the 2009 Kirksville, MO "EF2" (shoulda-been EF3) and I suspect it's actually a small flatbed trailer. Still, impressive stuff.

Interesting, I got the photo off a Tim Marshall presentation on El Reno, must’ve been misplaced there on accident. Here’s the original slide:

 

[TH2002]

Interesting, I got the photo off a Tim Marshall presentation on El Reno, must’ve been misplaced there on accident. Here’s the original slide:
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Hmmm. The original photo source is an article from 2009, so it's most definitely Kirksville. I assume Tim made a mistake here.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Hmmm. The original photo source is an article from 2009, so it's most definitely Kirksville. I assume Tim made a mistake here.

Yeah, pretty clearly misplaced there. Also, going through that article raises a whole assortment of questions on how that thing was rated EF2. It’s also interesting how they said it was initially rated EF2 then raised to EF3, yet it’s still officially an EF2. Wonder if that was a mistake or if it just never got officially upgraded.

 

[NewFoundWeatherNerd]

Does anyone have imagery of impressive damage from the 2013 El Reno tornado? I have never seen a single picture from that event that comes close to a violent intensity (with exception to the Twistex car, which is pretty violent vehicle damage) which leads me to believe that

1. It's an extraordinarily overrated tornado in intensity, especially by the general public.
2. Extreme windspeeds (>300 mph) are capable of occurring in tornadoes that are not capable of inflicting violent damage on the ground.
3. Forward speeds of a tornado can determine the type of damage it will inflict, not just the intensity of it. (This point is very nuanced and likely true, in my eyes.)

I want to know if I have the wrong ideas about this, or simply haven't seen the higher end damage this thing did. I honestly am against this thing receiving an EF5 rating and don't even think I'd support it being granted EF4, and I am definitely in the minority from what I have seen on the internet in that regard.

Also, just because I believe it's extremely overrated in intensity doesn't mean I believe it wasn't one of the most dangerous tornadoes to chase of all time. It makes complete sense to me why people were caught so off-guard by this thing, and even chasers passed away from it. I definitely wouldn't put it into the most powerful tornadoes ever recorded but I most certainly would put it as a top 3 most dangerous tornado to chase that we have seen.

There is a site by Lyndon State college over an aerial survey done!

20 May 2013 - El Reno Photography

But truly keep in mind, this tornado hit just about nothing; as someone who has been to the tornado site (last year, 2023), its extremely desolate out there. Short of a few fences, trees, and the occasional small farming structure; you would think it's central KS in terms of nothingness

 

[phant]

Found some more pics of Guin that I either colorized or are already in color, you can see how intense this thing was & how narrow the F5 core was. Some of these were in a post by loco that he thought was mostly from Madison County but I think quite a few of them were from Marion County where Guin, a handful I'm sure are from Guin. I'll post them & analysis of them now:

First off, these, B&W and color pics. Note the ground scouring & large field of debris in both sets:


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This color photo has a ground-level in newspapers.com, I'll post both here & provide analysis of them:


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Note the house that looks like it slid off it's foundation & is partially damaged but still somewhat intact in the plot of land with lots of debris wind-rowed over it in the B&W pic & note how in this pic that field by the aforementioned house is almost completely scoured of grass & likely has topsoil dug out at least several inches. Note the tire tracks across that plot of land too as that's a common site with F5/EF5 damage, as the ground is scouring so thoroughly car tracks are visible on it. You see this with stuff like Udall, Smithville, etc. It's remarkable how narrow Guin's F5 core was & how selective the damage was; likely a combination of inner core & a multivortex structure. The ground scouring it did is likely the most intense from that day (although I'd like to see more photos of both Tanner tornado damage & Brandenburg for comparison) and shows that Guin lives up to its reputation. If it was moving in excess of 70mph as Grazulis that kind of scouring is EXTREMELY impressive given how narrow the core was & that there wouldn't be much time to scour grass or soil from the ground.

Do you happen to know if theres an album of those aerials of Guin? (The last image)

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Do you happen to know if theres an album of those aerials of Guin? (The last image)

Not that I'm aware of, I can dig through my previous posts if you'd like.

 

[Ivanthetornadoenthusiast]

@Western_KS_Wx So, how was your Greensburg project?

 

[phant]

Not that I'm aware of, I can dig through my previous posts if you'd like.

Nah you don't have to thanks though, I bet I can find them if I do some digging

 

[AJS]

Three years on ago today, the infamous December 10-11 Tornado Outbreak took place. Even 3 years later, I still have trouble comprehending the violence and magnitude of that outbreak and the historical nature of the Quad State Supercell. RIP to the 90 lives lost.

 

[phant]

Hello, I'm trying to make a gallery for every violent tornado has been documented since records have begun, and would appreciate some help from you guys.

So what I'm looking for currently is your guys' picks for violent tornadoes Pre-F-scale (Beginning-1971) so I can include them in my gallery. Also, it would be very helpful if any of you guys know of any websites that have tornado lists (besides Wikipedia) mainly for Pre-F-scale tornadoes right now. I only use Wikipedia and Talkweather for that sort of thing, but I'd like to use any other websites for damage photos and tornado lists if there are any. Thanks!

Also, if anyone knows of some PDFs that I can read up on for tornado damage and important tornado aspects in general, I'd greatly appreciate them as well. (I already have some on Windfield, Windload, Vortex Flow, Vortice simulations, Supercell climate, Storm interactions, and LES tornado simulations.)

 

[UK_EF4]

Can't believe its been 3 years since the Dec 10th outbreak, part of me still feels like I'm waiting for that final rating to come out. Still blows my mind just how exceptional the outbreak was, especially considering time of year, and the pure violence of the quad-state supercell in particular.

I personally consider the W Ky tornado to be EF5 level, and the fact the supercell dropped not only this tornado but another very long tracked and very violent tornado is exceptional. Then go on to consider the 3-4 other very significant tornado families that day, with other arguably violent tornadoes. Truly a historic outbreak.

Don't know how much progress has been made 3 years on but really hope all impacted areas continue to recover as smoothly and quickly as possible.

 

[jiharris0220]

DRONE12: Mayfield, Ky. tornado recovery

A look at the recovery in Mayfield, Kentucky on the third anniversary of an EF4 tornado.

www.kfvs12.com

This video by KFVS 12 shows how mayfield looks today.

The downtown area unsurprisingly remains barren but it’s clear progress is being made and new commercial structures are being built.

No doubt it will be a more resilient town once fully recovered, and I hope a lot of its history is preserved.

 

[SpotlightForRareTornadoes]

The Worst December Outbreak in History - How Tornadoes Ruined Christmas for Thousands of People Living in Western Kentucky