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Significant Tornado Events

I'm no sure anything residential before 1960ish would be rated EF-5 today due to a lack of rafter ties, anchor bolts, full foundations, or slabs. And I do think several AL 2011 tornadoes were underrated, which is what got me started on my rampage against the way the EF scale is mis-used that seemed to begin happening around that time or a few years earlier. Even the Tri-State would have a hard time being rated EF- 5 save for a few specific spectacular damage events. Hard to argue that Jarrell wasn't the most complete destruction ever recorded, or that El Reno was the biggest by actual measure but beyond that a lot of it becomes subjective. All the events being spoken of were spectacular; rank them where you will and be prepared to hear dissension.
 
Sawmaster said:
I'm no sure anything residential before 1960ish would be rated EF-5 today due to a lack of rafter ties, anchor bolts, full foundations, or slabs. And I do think several AL 2011 tornadoes were underrated, which is what got me started on my rampage against the way the EF scale is mis-used that seemed to begin happening around that time or a few years earlier. Even the Tri-State would have a hard time being rated EF- 5 save for a few specific spectacular damage events. Hard to argue that Jarrell wasn't the most complete destruction ever recorded, or that El Reno was the biggest by actual measure but beyond that a lot of it becomes subjective. All the events being spoken of were spectacular; rank them where you will and be prepared to hear dissension.
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Having got the entire damage map for Tri-State, I can safely say there are various instances where EF5 damage was done. Longfellow School, the M&O yards, Reliance Mill, Mcneal's Bakery, Blue Front Hotel, just to name a few in Murphysboro. In West Frankfort, the powder house at Orient Mine, and also I contacted ethan Moriarty a while back to estimate the winds needed to destroy the water tower there, it was... an incredible estimate to say the least. At Caldwell, the Peabody Mine 18 buildings, in Griffin, several businesses and the school, in Princeton, the Heinz Factory.
 
Sawmaster said:
I'm no sure anything residential before 1960ish would be rated EF-5 today due to a lack of rafter ties, anchor bolts, full foundations, or slabs. And I do think several AL 2011 tornadoes were underrated, which is what got me started on my rampage against the way the EF scale is mis-used that seemed to begin happening around that time or a few years earlier. Even the Tri-State would have a hard time being rated EF- 5 save for a few specific spectacular damage events. Hard to argue that Jarrell wasn't the most complete destruction ever recorded, or that El Reno was the biggest by actual measure but beyond that a lot of it becomes subjective. All the events being spoken of were spectacular; rank them where you will and be prepared to hear dissension.
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At this point based on HAwkmoon's responses to me, you and others it's pretty clear he's a troll, or just arrogant. I'm ignoring him.
And on the topic at hand, the scale is so screwed up at this point I can imagine something like Jarrell getting slapped with a high-end EF4. Even worse, one "study" suggested that Jarrell only had F3 winds. FYI there's another thread for the scale debate.

talkweather.com

Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

I'll reply to the rest of this in a bit, where did you get the screenshot of the presentation? And the DOD graph? i forget where i got the presentation screenshot from since its been quite a while as for the DOD graph its from 2 separate areas here is one
talkweather.com talkweather.com
 
joshoctober16 said:
wait westminster F3 swept clean some mid to well built homes?

only issues i find with this list is
1:im shock smithville is that low since it has done most of the things the ones you rated above it (mud picked up and plasted against homes, vehicle thrown extreme distances , some so mangled and torn apart that some were missing and never found, low strong shrubbery were not only completely debarked but some areas were missing without a trace, debris granulation so severe its turn into little powder sized parts.)

2:no Sherman F5 or Joplin EF5? its to note both messed up a lot of the peoples bodies like jarrell did.

3:im a bit shock that san justo is that high at least since most of what you stated is shrub and vehicle damage however smithville , hackleburg , joplin have done the same plus with some vehicles never found

others to look at not mention above
1:Marion County - Barnes F4+ July 2004
2:Loyal Valley F4+ May 1999
3:Chifeng WTS EF4 August 2017
4:Mayfield - Bremen EF4+ Dec 2021
5:Cordova EF4 April 2011
6: Picher EF4 May 2008
7:Evrey other official EF5 since 2007 (Greensburg specifically)
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I'm pretty shocked that anyone would put Chigeng into this discussion. Three Chifeng tornados were definitely very violent with the last one being probably the strongest one. I did swept some brick houses and made relative impressive contextual damage but it was no way comparable to tornados on the list. The houses it destroyed wasn't as well built as houses in Funing(the one that should be considered the strongest one in China with clear picture evidence). Also it didnt mangled any tractor as far as I know and some sort of things carried 6.4km or so was also probably untrue cause the path of all three were extremely short(around 1km for each).
All three Chifeng tornado were extremely slow mover, comparable to Jarrell or even slower given them longer time to destroy houses. Overall I would tend to think that mid to maybe even high range EF4 wad possible for Chifeng tornados but there were no evidence point anything further than this.
1195117277570102.png2139717277570222.png3917417277570382.png5644017277571462.png753717277570012.png8401717277571852.png
 
Juliett Bravo Kilo said:
At this point based on HAwkmoon's responses to me, you and others it's pretty clear he's a troll, or just arrogant. I'm ignoring him.
And on the topic at hand, the scale is so screwed up at this point I can imagine something like Jarrell getting slapped with a high-end EF4. Even worse, one "study" suggested that Jarrell only had F3 winds. FYI there's another thread for the scale debate.

talkweather.com

Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

I'll reply to the rest of this in a bit, where did you get the screenshot of the presentation? And the DOD graph? i forget where i got the presentation screenshot from since its been quite a while as for the DOD graph its from 2 separate areas here is one
talkweather.com talkweather.com
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Troll? No. He made a point saying Tri-state would have a hard time getting EF5, I said that it would not. I don't know how that makes me a troll. I don't know why you are being rude when I have not been rude to you. You said no EF5 would get rated as such today, that is just flat out untrue, Tim Marshal has even stated things like Jarrell would. How that makes me a "troll" or "arrogant" and deserving of being ignored I don't understand. Because you disagree with what I have said?
 
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OHWX97 said:
"Smithville is the most overrated tornado ever."
View attachment 30904
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huh who is saying that? then again nws only has it as 205 mph and isnt with the 3 210 mph tornadoes.
then again ive seen some papers list el reno 2011 mph as 215 ... and some listed Joplin as 250 mph? at one point?

i feel like if there is a over rated tornado ... its xenia .... ya it swept clean some brick buildings and did some impressive wind rowing ..... but except for them 2 facts i don't really see much that seems EF5 about it...
 
Juliett Bravo Kilo said:
At this point based on HAwkmoon's responses to me, you and others it's pretty clear he's a troll, or just arrogant. I'm ignoring him.
And on the topic at hand, the scale is so screwed up at this point I can imagine something like Jarrell getting slapped with a high-end EF4. Even worse, one "study" suggested that Jarrell only had F3 winds. FYI there's another thread for the scale debate.

talkweather.com

Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

I'll reply to the rest of this in a bit, where did you get the screenshot of the presentation? And the DOD graph? i forget where i got the presentation screenshot from since its been quite a while as for the DOD graph its from 2 separate areas here is one
talkweather.com talkweather.com
Click to expand...
If you ever want to open a hornet's nest, just make a suggestion with the general public about the F3 assessment of Jarrell. Which I've read in depth and TBH is convincing to a good degree and is the only place where I've found a valid questioning of the anchoring of homes at Double Creek. Perhaps it is over-rated, but it remains the most thoroughly destructive example of a tornado I've ever came across.

We're all opinionated to some degree so I take in what I see everywhere and make up my own mind. If someone says something which I don't agree with I keep that in mind for whatever else they may say. Nobody is 100% right 100% of the time but nearly everyone is worth hearing.
 
tornadowatch211 said:
Actual vehicle granulation (the image I sent) is when a car is literally broken apart into multiple pieces less than 6” in diameter. like Stratton and Bridge Creek. Still, lifting a vehicle 50 yards in the air thrown 0.5 miles into a water tower, then bounced off 0.25 miles away to the funeral home is still incredibly impressive.
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its interesting to note that one of the more impressive car feats were from the smithville..... supercell ... but not smithville tornado , but the EF3 that just roped out before smithville touched down ... it threw a truck 1.7+ miles away without it touching the ground once , might be the furthest a vehicle was thrown without rolling or bouncing...
 
tornadowatch211 said:
Ik, some of the actual wood was literally ripped off on that specific tree.
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its to note there are images of before and after of some homes , and the small shrub / bushes you tend to see completely debarked in tornadoes like bridge creek were missing without a trace , while i cant find that exact before and after iamge here is a image of that home and where the shrub/bushes were at.
1728825689724.png
the dark hole like spots were they used to be ... also notice the granulation is in little woodchip sized parts
 
I think Hawkmoon was referring to me in my assessment of how the Tri-State tornado would be rated today. I simply believe that there's so much resistance in the system about assigning EF-5 ratings that even this tornado wouldn't get it though it certainly deserves it IMHO. The system is broken as I've said many times, and it needs more than upgrades to the DI's and DAT's to fix that.
 
Sawmaster said:
I think Hawkmoon was referring to me in my assessment of how the Tri-State tornado would be rated today. I simply believe that there's so much resistance in the system about assigning EF-5 ratings that even this tornado wouldn't get it though it certainly deserves it IMHO. The system is broken as I've said many times, and it needs more than upgrades to the DI's and DAT's to fix that.
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The Ef scale is getting a revision. A revised version was used to assess greenfield. The tornadoes that i think deserved EF5 most are goldsby chickasha and Vilonia, I don't think the scale is broken, just that there are things that need to change in its application.
 
joshoctober16 said:
its to note there are images of before and after of some homes , and the small shrub / bushes you tend to see completely debarked in tornadoes like bridge creek were missing without a trace , while i cant find that exact before and after iamge here is a image of that home and where the shrub/bushes were at.
View attachment 30922
the dark hole like spots were they used to be ... also notice the granulation is in little woodchip sized parts
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Bridge Creek produced similar vegetation damage if not a bit worse, but smithville is definitely extremely violent. That is without question.
 
HAwkmoon said:
Wrong about that actually, almost all of the 9, maybe with the exclusion of Philadelphia and rainsville would get it, as would Bridge Creek and Jarrell.
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there is a paper that i lost when my HDD died but should be somewhere out there that states bridge creek 1999 would be rated a 200 mph EF4 and should be rated the same strength as the 2 other EF4 that were rated 200 mph on the el reno piedmont EF5 day... if some one knows what paper this is post a link , its a paper specifically talking about the 2 EF4 from that outbreak and mentions bridge creek would of been a 200 mph EF4.
 
joshoctober16 said:
there is a paper that i lost when my HDD died but should be somewhere out there that states bridge creek 1999 would be rated a 200 mph EF4 and should be rated the same strength as the 2 other EF4 that were rated 200 mph on the el reno piedmont EF5 day... if some one knows what paper this is post a link , its a paper specifically talking about the 2 EF4 from that outbreak and mentions bridge creek would of been a 200 mph EF4.
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Oh bridge creek would get EF5, Marshal stated it and we have images of well-built homes swept clean.
 

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joshoctober16 said:
its interesting to note that one of the more impressive car feats were from the smithville..... supercell ... but not smithville tornado , but the EF3 that just roped out before smithville touched down ... it threw a truck 1.7+ miles away without it touching the ground once , might be the furthest a vehicle was thrown without rolling or bouncing...
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Also it did not throw a truck 1.7 miles, a piece was found 1.7 miles away, but fenders like that can break off.
 
HAwkmoon said:
Troll? No. He made a point saying Tri-state would have a hard time getting EF5, I said that it would not. I don't know how that makes me a troll. I don't know why you are being rude when I have not been rude to you. You said no EF5 would get rated as such today, that is just flat out untrue, Tim Marshal has even stated things like Jarrell would. How that makes me a "troll" or "arrogant" and deserving of being ignored I don't understand. Because you disagree with what I have said?
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i might sadly agree that almost no post 2000+ would be rated EF5 today ... minus possibly parkersburg , all other tornadoes suffers form .. not a offical di .... or trees standing nearby... or there are other homes close by so the debris would crash into the so call EF5 damage and make it worse.... and after all that your left with just 2 homes form the parkersbrug tornado....

again blame villonia / mayfeild outbreak for this....

talking about mayfeild its interesting to note that tim marshall seems to act that jarrell should be the start of the EF5 rating.... if anything is sligthly weaker then jarrell then it isn't a EF5... sounds off...
 
joshoctober16 said:
i might sadly agree that almost no post 2000+ would be rated EF5 today ... minus possibly parkersburg , all other tornadoes suffers form .. not a offical di .... or trees standing nearby... or there are other homes close by so the debris would crash into the so call EF5 damage and make it worse.... and after all that your left with just 2 homes form the parkersbrug tornado....

again blame villonia / mayfeild outbreak for this....

talking about mayfeild its interesting to note that tim marshall seems to act that jarrell should be the start of the EF5 rating.... if anything is sligthly weaker then jarrell then it isn't a EF5... sounds off...
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Mayfield's home in Bremen was not well-built enough to be rated EF5, straight nailed studs and unreinforced cmu, Greensburg, Parkersburg, Joplin, Moore 2013, Piedmont, Hackleburg and smithville would certainly get it.
 
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HAwkmoon said:
Mayfield's home in Bremen was not well-built enough to be rated EF5, straight nailed studs and unreinforced cmu, Greensburg, Parkersburg, Joplin, Moore 2013, Piedmont, Hackleburg and smithville would certainly get it.
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il give you a example of all the reason why each of them would not be rated EF5 today...

note... what im about to say is using the logic of NWS 2014+ and a lot of this was said with villonia in particular

  • greensburg: trees standing within 50 yards and debris from all the homes touched the EF5 damage thus EF4
  • elie: no scouring and one F5 Di , trees standing close by thus F4 (old scale and canada but i put it here since its post 2000)
  • Parkersburg: 2 homes rated EF5 since they were alone and had major debris granulation no trees standing within 100 yards, and some ground scouring nearby thus EF5. (however all other areas were hit by debris thus the main parkersburg area has no EF5 rated area)
  • Philadelphia: trees still standing close by and no true EF5 di found, thus EF4.
  • Smithville: trees standing within 50 yards , most of the buildings were hit by debris form other homes thus EF4.
  • Phil campbell: homes were hit by debris nearby for most areas, small shrubs and bushes are fine beside the so call EF5 damage, no ground scouring in most areas and trees standing close by ... thus EF4 (note tim marshall wanted this one to only be rated EF4)
  • Rainsville: homes hit by debris in some areas , trees standing within 30 yards away thus EF4.
  • Joplin: trees standing within 100 yards in some spots... every home were hit by debris thus EF4.
  • el reno 2011: only one good area that could be found as EF5 damage... however not a official di and we can not rate a tornado EF5 base on one di... thus... EF4...
  • Moore 2013: trees standing within 100 yards away.... homes all hit by debris , only EF0 damage beside some of the EF5 damage... thus EF4.. (home home did not suffer from debris impact however had trees standing close by)

so ya .. thats why likely most of them would not be rated EF5.... sadly...


oh and just to be sure before anyone says villonia and mayfeild had one tiny flaw in the construction ... that isnt the point .. the point is they mostly had to use debris impact... trees standing 100 yards .... and cant rate this ef5 cause one di only.... if its poor quality... then so be it... but they had no reason to bring up trees far away or only one EF5 damage point....
 
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