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Significant Tornado Events

I don't think forward speed makes scouring harder....look at Smithville, Hackleburg, Guin and the Tri-State for proof of that. If anything, I think fast forward speed makes it easier to yank out grass and scour the ground. Fast winds right at ground level moving along quickly likely hit the grass blades or enter holes in soul quicker and force it upwards faster.
oh just to be sure there is trench digging that seems to be both less and more impressive then normal ground scouring from what i remembered from most impress to least impress it goes


1:trench digging of 2+ feet
2:real ground scouring and trench digging of 1.5+ feet
3:trench digging less then 1.5 feet

apparently its easier to have trench digging then normal ground scouring if its less then 1.5 , but then the soil pass 1.5 feet gets harder to do then normal ground scouring , im guessing this is why Philadelphia 2+ feet trench digging was rated EF5?

its to note Philadelphia both made trench digging and normal ground scouring in the same field.

also some of Smithville's scouring is really impressive that you might get it mistaken as jarrell
scouring.png.
there is also some trench digging from smithville but never truly measured but its one of the rare few you can see on google earth years later (along with parkersburg and el reno 2011)
 
I don't think forward speed makes scouring harder....look at Smithville, Hackleburg, Guin and the Tri-State for proof of that. If anything, I think fast forward speed makes it easier to yank out grass and scour the ground. Fast winds right at ground level moving along quickly likely hit the grass blades or enter holes in soul quicker and force it upwards faster.
Scouring is easier when the tornado is moving slower, and harder when it is moving faster. Trenching however, is easier if the tornado is moving faster, but trenching isnt very impressive in my opinion.
 
well then now san justo vehicle damage isnt as impressive if its less then 16 mph.

they were thrown , smash then thrown then smash.... over and over ...

but what is all this fast movement makes homes more badly damaged but slower isnt?

heck i think nws stated for Mayfield tornado speed (unsure how fast it was again) that structural damage isn't at its worst because it was moving too fast

then there are tornadoes like hackleburg , smithville and the philadelphia EF5 that all likely had there EF5 damage made under 2 seconds and not the average 3 second gust so wouldn't at least these 3 and any fast moving EF5 that had a thin EF5 center damage path be more impressive?

also its to note the most medium forward speed of a tornado is around 25-30 mph so that should be in the middle part of the moderate range
1: "well then now san justo vehicle damage isnt as impressive if its less then 16 mph. They were thrown , smash then thrown then smash.... over and over ..."

Still, even though San Justo was moving at this slow of a speed the damage is very impressive nonetheless. It's also pretty hard to determine vehicle damage anyways, as we don't know if the vehicle was carried with the circulation for a long period, continuing to be smashed and dragged along the ground being destroyed more and more, or the vehicle was simply thrown a huge distance away from the tornado or was thrown at such a speed that its impact had such a force the vehicle was smashed apart. I believe that due to the severity of structural damage in San Justo, I think the majority of the vehicles were thrown with such force and at such high speeds that when they connected with another object they were smashed/ripped apart. Other vehicles however from San Justo u can see more traditional mangling, some images (to me), look similar to Moore 2013's vehicle destruction, and others more like Bridge Creek. To be honest, though, there are simply too many factors to consider when talking about vehicle damage for a really good claim to be made.

2: "but what is all this fast movement makes homes more badly damaged but slower isnt?"

I may have exaggerated this point in my post earlier, but, faster forward speed results in added speed in the core of the tornado, and if that tornado is already strong (like Smithville), the damage within the core of the tornado will be much worse compared to similar windspeeds at a slower forward speed. Which, if the tornado encountered a well-built home, for example, has 240mph winds, and is moving at 65mph, if the home was cored, then the damage would be more severe (not by much though), than if the tornado was moving at lets say 45mph.

3: "heck i think nws stated for Mayfield tornado speed (unsure how fast it was again) that structural damage isn't at its worst because it was moving too fast"

Yeah, I've seen this image before, Mayfield's average forward speed was 57.17mph, but I think this screenshot is taken a little out of context. First off, he says that the tornado damage would become worse, which is mostly true, contexual damage would become worse if Mayfield was a slower-moving tornado. I feel like the statement is pretty broad, and because so little detail is attached to it (like what type of damage is he referring to), this screenshot can be used to say many things, but what he said does not apply to structural damage.

asdfasdf.png

4: "then there are tornadoes like hackleburg , smithville and the philadelphia EF5 that all likely had there EF5 damage made under 2 seconds and not the average 3 second gust so wouldn't at least these 3 and any fast moving EF5 that had a thin EF5 center damage path be more impressive?"

Well, yes, the damage in the center damage path will be more impressive with these 3 tornadoes, because faster movement speed results in a quicker windspeed within the core of the tornado. Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. Still, an argument can be made that the 3-second gust is just the measurement used to calculate the wind speeds of tornadoes when accessing the damage, and recorded windspeeds also use this format to make it less confusing / more efficient, but this could be entirely wrong however I'm not very versed on this topic.

5: "also its to note the most medium forward speed of a tornado is around 25-30 mph so that should be in the middle part of the moderate range"

Yes, moderate is the medium on my scale, I probably should have called it medium.
 
1: "well then now san justo vehicle damage isnt as impressive if its less then 16 mph. They were thrown , smash then thrown then smash.... over and over ..."

Still, even though San Justo was moving at this slow of a speed the damage is very impressive nonetheless. It's also pretty hard to determine vehicle damage anyways, as we don't know if the vehicle was carried with the circulation for a long period, continuing to be smashed and dragged along the ground being destroyed more and more, or the vehicle was simply thrown a huge distance away from the tornado or was thrown at such a speed that its impact had such a force the vehicle was smashed apart. I believe that due to the severity of structural damage in San Justo, I think the majority of the vehicles were thrown with such force and at such high speeds that when they connected with another object they were smashed/ripped apart. Other vehicles however from San Justo u can see more traditional mangling, some images (to me), look similar to Moore 2013's vehicle destruction, and others more like Bridge Creek. To be honest, though, there are simply too many factors to consider when talking about vehicle damage for a really good claim to be made.

2: "but what is all this fast movement makes homes more badly damaged but slower isnt?"

I may have exaggerated this point in my post earlier, but, faster forward speed results in added speed in the core of the tornado, and if that tornado is already strong (like Smithville), the damage within the core of the tornado will be much worse compared to similar windspeeds at a slower forward speed. Which, if the tornado encountered a well-built home, for example, has 240mph winds, and is moving at 65mph, if the home was cored, then the damage would be more severe (not by much though), than if the tornado was moving at lets say 45mph.

3: "heck i think nws stated for Mayfield tornado speed (unsure how fast it was again) that structural damage isn't at its worst because it was moving too fast"

Yeah, I've seen this image before, Mayfield's average forward speed was 57.17mph, but I think this screenshot is taken a little out of context. First off, he says that the tornado damage would become worse, which is mostly true, contexual damage would become worse if Mayfield was a slower-moving tornado. I feel like the statement is pretty broad, and because so little detail is attached to it (like what type of damage is he referring to), this screenshot can be used to say many things, but what he said does not apply to structural damage.

View attachment 30587

4: "then there are tornadoes like hackleburg , smithville and the philadelphia EF5 that all likely had there EF5 damage made under 2 seconds and not the average 3 second gust so wouldn't at least these 3 and any fast moving EF5 that had a thin EF5 center damage path be more impressive?"

Well, yes, the damage in the center damage path will be more impressive with these 3 tornadoes, because faster movement speed results in a quicker windspeed within the core of the tornado. Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. Still, an argument can be made that the 3-second gust is just the measurement used to calculate the wind speeds of tornadoes when accessing the damage, and recorded windspeeds also use this format to make it less confusing / more efficient, but this could be entirely wrong however I'm not very versed on this topic.

5: "also its to note the most medium forward speed of a tornado is around 25-30 mph so that should be in the middle part of the moderate range"

Yes, moderate is the medium on my scale, I probably should have called it medium.
i would also like to say i like how you actually try to have a good discussion and try to take everything into account.

however one thing to note .... the whole forward speed changes one side to be weaker and the other side stronger might not be as extreme as you think , some new papers are starting to show up and the whole damage vs wind speed tend to show 200 mph is in the EF2 damage range ....

while the papers never show what the average EF5 wind speed start should be using this data , if you would extend this average line it would go around 400 mph ... so i don't think a 70 mph forward speed will change much if a 400 mph tornado is coming since its 400 + or - 70 mph
Screenshot_2024-03-19_at_12.51.30_PM.png

here is a example.
its interesting to note the EF4 wind speed start is where EF2 should be starting.

its to note that anything under 60 meters is valid for radar measurement according to the IF scale.
 
i would also like to say i like how you actually try to have a good discussion and try to take everything into account.

however one thing to note .... the whole forward speed changes one side to be weaker and the other side stronger might not be as extreme as you think , some new papers are starting to show up and the whole damage vs wind speed tend to show 200 mph is in the EF2 damage range ....

while the papers never show what the average EF5 wind speed start should be using this data , if you would extend this average line it would go around 400 mph ... so i don't think a 70 mph forward speed will change much if a 400 mph tornado is coming since its 400 + or - 70 mph
View attachment 30588

here is a example.
its interesting to note the EF4 wind speed start is where EF2 should be starting.

its to note that anything under 60 meters is valid for radar measurement according to the IF scale.
Interesting I've actually never seen this before
 
i would also like to say i like how you actually try to have a good discussion and try to take everything into account.

however one thing to note .... the whole forward speed changes one side to be weaker and the other side stronger might not be as extreme as you think , some new papers are starting to show up and the whole damage vs wind speed tend to show 200 mph is in the EF2 damage range ....

while the papers never show what the average EF5 wind speed start should be using this data , if you would extend this average line it would go around 400 mph ... so i don't think a 70 mph forward speed will change much if a 400 mph tornado is coming since its 400 + or - 70 mph
View attachment 30588

here is a example.
its interesting to note the EF4 wind speed start is where EF2 should be starting.

its to note that anything under 60 meters is valid for radar measurement according to the IF scale.
Do u got any other interesting topics to talk about? Or stuff thats usually debated?
 
Oh yeah I forgot about that thread, I was mainly talking about you specifically though, I'm curious
well you can ask me anything you would like but i do have somthing interesting to suggest try making a your strongest tornado list using some sort of caculation on google sheets , it will help with bias issues , ive done this my self and smithville and el reno 2011 are super high on the list
 
well you can ask me anything you would like but i do have somthing interesting to suggest try making a your strongest tornado list using some sort of caculation on google sheets , it will help with bias issues , ive done this my self and smithville and el reno 2011 are super high on the list
The one u posted on reddit? If so I've seen it
 
The one u posted on reddit? If so I've seen it
not sure if i ever posted it or not but if so its likely old

but google sheets or somthing else that can be... coded would be helpfull , this means the whole rainsville having trees standing 35 yards away and villonia trees standing 100 yards away logic will be gone , that wierd bias can be removed and if its kept you will soon notice there are no EF5 , pretty much if you try to change the rules it will change it for all the tornadoes , that is somthing that would be helpfull.
 
not sure if i ever posted it or not but if so its likely old

but google sheets or somthing else that can be... coded would be helpfull , this means the whole rainsville having trees standing 35 yards away and villonia trees standing 100 yards away logic will be gone , that wierd bias can be removed and if its kept you will soon notice there are no EF5 , pretty much if you try to change the rules it will change it for all the tornadoes , that is somthing that would be helpfull.
Its a pretty interesting idea tbh
 
Set your parameters, input the data, and the rankings will take care of themselves. Thing is that with most powerful tornadoes each has something special and noteworthy involved ie how many 16K lb oil rigs have been hit? How many cattle have been de-skinned and had their internals reversed? How many storm shelters have had roofs removed? So you can't always make direct comparisons and if you try to 'smooth' the data by including only parameters which are applicable to all or most tornadoes you'll lose the goal of exactness you were trying to attain.

Things like absolute rankings are always going to be subjective and arguable no matter what you do. Less arguable is to group them like "top 3" or "top 10" but even that will be contentious, just less so. It's an interesting exercise that will also show you where your own perspective is. It's a pursuit which can drive you crazy arguing with yourself if you let it.
 
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Some Smithville photos I found on Flickr. Really sorry if some are reposts:
Truck that looks like it had its front shaved off with a razor (1st photo). This is near the B&B that got absolutely obliterated. Its hard to explain. Cinder blocks were chopped up like celery, intense debris granulation happened. The first death was here:
View attachment 30478
This is near the E.E. Pickle Funeral Home, where some of the worst damage to a residential structure happened. The funeral home practically vanished. The softwood near the structure suffered some of the worst vegetation damage ever. Not only were they debraked, but some had pieces of the wood ripped off of their trunks. Extreme granulation, wind-rowing, and more was evident, but this is a ground level view of the treefall near the funeral home:
View attachment 30479
Some photos in the middle of town. Low-lying shrubbery and trees alike were not just debarked, but sometimes shredded to mulch, debris was granulated into <1 inch pieces (some of the worst documented). Granulated debris got wind-rowed hundreds of yards, and more:
View attachment 30480View attachment 30481
Others:View attachment 30482View attachment 30483
A mangle of pretty much everything, including farm machinery, debris from houses, and more like a giant sized knot:
View attachment 30484
Near the water tower. The contextuals werent as bad as say; E.E. Pickle, but still well into Bridge Creek territory:
View attachment 30486
Not Bridge Creek level, but still incredible.
 
oh just to be sure there is trench digging that seems to be both less and more impressive then normal ground scouring from what i remembered from most impress to least impress it goes


1:trench digging of 2+ feet
2:real ground scouring and trench digging of 1.5+ feet
3:trench digging less then 1.5 feet

apparently its easier to have trench digging then normal ground scouring if its less then 1.5 , but then the soil pass 1.5 feet gets harder to do then normal ground scouring , im guessing this is why Philadelphia 2+ feet trench digging was rated EF5?

its to note Philadelphia both made trench digging and normal ground scouring in the same field.

also some of Smithville's scouring is really impressive that you might get it mistaken as jarrell
View attachment 30584.
there is also some trench digging from smithville but never truly measured but its one of the rare few you can see on google earth years later (along with parkersburg and el reno 2011)
That is not scouring, that field did not have any grass to begin with.
 
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