• Welcome to TalkWeather!
    We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion.
    CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER

locomusic01

Member
Messages
1,355
Reaction score
3,776
Location
Pennsylvania
I don't see why it shouldn't be if done decently. And it should be a lot easier to do these days with computers rather than having to enlarge, trace and align frames by hand.
IIRC Roger Wakimoto did a photogrammetric analysis on the El Reno '13 tentacle monster, and I vaguely recall a couple other examples fairly recently, so it's still being used to some extent. I'm not sure how precise it is, but I'd think it would still provide useful data.
 

Equus

Member
Messages
3,303
Reaction score
3,399
Location
Jasper, AL
Special Affiliations
  1. SKYWARN® Volunteer
Pampa was actually Grazulis' personal pick of the most intense tornado caught on film at the time of publishing his F5/F6 supplement in the early 2000s; particle motion led him to suggest that was one of the more intense tornadoes on video. That day overall is extraordinarily underrated as to the number of extremely violent tornadoes in a small spatial area

Screenshot_20230226_124659.jpg
 

A Guy

Member
Messages
161
Reaction score
314
Location
Australia
IIRC Roger Wakimoto did a photogrammetric analysis on the El Reno '13 tentacle monster, and I vaguely recall a couple other examples fairly recently, so it's still being used to some extent. I'm not sure how precise it is, but I'd think it would still provide useful data.
They're using it a different way though, exploring the colocation of radar and visual features to, among other things, work out what the radar is actually depicting. I haven't seen windspeed photogrammetry in papers after the eighties. I think there may have been some problems with assuming the shape of the path of the objects/features tracked (this could be reduced with a shorter segment I suppose), but I also think the rise of doppler radar was probably also a major factor.

I first thought about whether it might be a useful avenue to explore when watching video of the Langley KS EF4 from 2012. Since then there's been numerous other tornadoes filmed with the very base visible. There are often multiple angles available that should help ease constraining distances and the footage quality is way higher than what was used previously.

There is an interesting aside to the studies such as Atkins et al.'s of the Moore tornado, which is that the visual (at least basal) diameter of the condensation funnel is often far smaller than the widths the people filming them spout off. When the Moore tornado was near its maximum surveyed width of 1.74 km the condensation funnel was only about 270 metres across. I saw some speculation somewhere about whether the width of the visible funnel corresponds to the intense damage core seen in many violent tornadoes but they claimed there wasn't a tight consistency (don't remember which paper). Could be a relationship worth exploring though, I think there could be something to it.
 
Last edited:
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
2,823
Location
Missouri
Pampa was actually Grazulis' personal pick of the most intense tornado caught on film at the time of publishing his F5/F6 supplement in the early 2000s; particle motion led him to suggest that was one of the more intense tornadoes on video. That day overall is extraordinarily underrated as to the number of extremely violent tornadoes in a small spatial area

View attachment 18218
It should've been rated F5, it probably would've been if it had occurred during the 70s or 80s.
Kellerville, Hoover and Allison were probably all F5s but didn't hit any DIs capable of registering F5 damage.
This outbreak reminds me of 5/24/11 in that 3-4 E/F5 tornadoes likely occurred in a small area in the same state in the same day. Shame this outbreak isn't thoroughly documented like it should be.
 

AngelAndHisWx

Member
Messages
81
Reaction score
233
Location
New Britain, CT
Pampa was actually Grazulis' personal pick of the most intense tornado caught on film at the time of publishing his F5/F6 supplement in the early 2000s; particle motion led him to suggest that was one of the more intense tornadoes on video. That day overall is extraordinarily underrated as to the number of extremely violent tornadoes in a small spatial area

View attachment 18218
I did one of fancy motion panorama thingies on an okay quality copy of the sheriff’s video of Pampa which is pretty notorious for the shaky handheld video, and while I wish Grazulis could’ve provided an example on how exactly he came to that 300MPH rating, I can’t say that I disagree, the motions on this are on par with Duke Evan’s video of Andover.
 
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
2,823
Location
Missouri
I did one of fancy motion panorama thingies on an okay quality copy of the sheriff’s video of Pampa which is pretty notorious for the shaky handheld video, and while I wish Grazulis could’ve provided an example on how exactly he came to that 300MPH rating, I can’t say that I disagree, the motions on this are on par with Duke Evan’s video of Andover.

According to Chuck Doswell he and his chase partner saw debris make one full revolution around the funnel every second...mighty impressive.
 

TH2002

Member
Sustaining Member
Messages
3,188
Reaction score
4,830
Location
California, United States
Special Affiliations
  1. SKYWARN® Volunteer
So I'm curious, and this seems like the thread to ask. Has scouring ever been documented in a forest?
Fujita mentioned in his survey of the Teton-Yellowstone tornado that topsoil was scoured and plastered against the downed trees, but unfortunately no photos exist showing this as far as I know.
 
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
2,823
Location
Missouri
Fujita mentioned in his survey of the Teton-Yellowstone tornado that topsoil was scoured and plastered against the downed trees, but unfortunately no photos exist showing this as far as I know.
That's surprising; given how dense with vegetation forests are ground scouring and the like isn't something you expect.
 

buckeye05

Member
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
4,882
Location
Colorado
That's surprising; given how dense with vegetation forests are ground scouring and the like isn't something you expect.
I think it speaks to how violent that particular tornado was. Densely wooded areas usually cause enough interference/friction to prevent the absolute strongest winds from reaching ground level. Not in that case though.
 
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
2,823
Location
Missouri
I think it speaks to how violent that particular tornado was. Densely wooded areas usually cause enough interference/friction to prevent the absolute strongest winds from reaching ground level. Not in that case though.
I'd like to see pictures for proof, just to be sure.
It wouldn't surprise me if Moshannon, Kane and Tionesta caused ground scouring in forested areas but it just wasn't photographed.
 

Western_KS_Wx

Member
Messages
210
Reaction score
592
Location
Garden City KS
The Grand Teton/Yellowstone tornado in 1987 is such a weird event. The thing produced some of the most extreme tree damage Fujita’s ever seen and was rated F4 based on just tree damage alone (honestly wouldn’t rule out F5 intensity either) all while happening in the literal mountains of Yellowstone National Park. There was definite ground scouring as well and some spots where dense forest was literally scoured down. 4CCD197E-DF12-452C-8463-CF2FFD0D4888.jpegC853AAE3-1344-4FF3-B822-86BF99F721A6.pngA11CA55E-E675-4592-B1FC-9BCC356CAB72.png48552B70-4D37-46A2-B309-E5C10D139121.jpeg7FD59A47-ABF5-42A7-8161-307565B08A11.jpeg48883AEE-809D-404F-8590-25EDF1E9BFC0.jpeg5E55D496-B105-472C-B64D-1C5F264A853E.png
 

locomusic01

Member
Messages
1,355
Reaction score
3,776
Location
Pennsylvania
I'd like to see pictures for proof, just to be sure.
It wouldn't surprise me if Moshannon, Kane and Tionesta caused ground scouring in forested areas but it just wasn't photographed.
In a few Tionesta photos you can see places where there was scouring sort of along the treeline, and Moshannon caused patches of scouring on some of the exposed riverbanks, but I dunno about within the forest itself. It's hard to imagine it happening in general, not just because of frictional effects but also because of the different ground cover in forested areas (among other things). I've learned not to rule out almost anything when it comes to violent tornadoes though.

Here are a couple of the areas I was talking about in Tionesta - in the background along the treeline:

DTwyTVV.jpg


Along the right half of the treeline:

zyHgCpR.jpg


On Baker Island in the middle of the Allegheny River (harder to see in the second photo, which is closer to the edge of the damage path):

6QcAvWq.jpg


p1XCnZA.jpg
 
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
2,823
Location
Missouri
The Grand Teton/Yellowstone tornado in 1987 is such a weird event. The thing produced some of the most extreme tree damage Fujita’s ever seen and was rated F4 based on just tree damage alone (honestly wouldn’t rule out F5 intensity either) all while happening in the literal mountains of Yellowstone National Park. There was definite ground scouring as well and some spots where dense forest was literally scoured down. View attachment 18357View attachment 18358View attachment 18359View attachment 18360View attachment 18361View attachment 18362View attachment 18363
I think this also happened with the High Uintas Wilderness tornado in Utah in 1993. In fact, its path is still visible and probably the best preserved tornado path in the world.
 
Logo 468x120
Back
Top