Anything but the metric system
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WeathermanLeprechaun
Member
Can't be American if you're not refusing the metric system Tim Marshall is a reasonable use though for this forum
Ozonelayer
Member
Even apart from the Church in Mayfield, that one well built Bremen home that I love to bring up so much when discussing this could be an EF-5 DI, especially considering the contextual damage around the area (Absurd Ground Scouring, Debarking groves entire trees, and even granulation debris to the point where I have images of a smooth paste with small chunks of debris that was smeared all over the Bremen section of the path.) From my knowledge, a dump truck was tossed upward of half a mile and cars/trucks were tossed anywhere from a hundred yards all the way to 1+ Miles in extreme cases.
Point being, Mayfield was one of the strongest tornadoes in recent years and absolutely deserved an EF-5 rating in my eyes, even if just a contextual EF-5. The contextual damage is about as violent as it gets.
The dump truck may have actually been the tractor trailer @AJS was referring to. If you Google 18 ton tractor trailer a dump truck is the first thing that pops up.
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Reposting this: https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-49648
And this: https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-96817
And this: https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-96795
For the compilation of flat-out survey failures in Vilonia. Also by Jim LaDue's video, I'm pretty sure those E Wicker St. homes should be rated EF5 without even looking at the rest of the potential candidates that were missed.
And this: https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-96817
And this: https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-96795
For the compilation of flat-out survey failures in Vilonia. Also by Jim LaDue's video, I'm pretty sure those E Wicker St. homes should be rated EF5 without even looking at the rest of the potential candidates that were missed.
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Not as in depth as yall are with the damages. I feel like another underrated area of the Mayfield tornado was the damage in Cambridge Shores along the lake. Not sure the conditions of the houses but I remember discussing with buckeye and few others about them after the tornado destroyed those homes and swept away maybe one or two of them completely. Mind you those homes were multi-story homes IIRC. Thoughts?
Cambridge shores could basically be the poster child of EF3 rated subfloors. But there were poured concrete foundations with anchor bolts in the mix as well.
SouthFLwx
Member
I think out of all of the tornadoes in the 2020s so far, the one that deserves an upgrade to EF5 the most is West Kentucky. I say this because it checks off pretty much every EF5 DI that is in the EF-scale; homes swept away, vehicles thrown and mangled, ground scouring, wind rowing and granulation of debris, and incredible phenomena occurring (yet another instance of train cars being thrown). The only DI it doesn’t check off are trees being completely debarked, but that has to do with the fact that this tornado occurred during winter time, so trees are going to be much difficult to debark. Other than that, West Kentucky is the exact definition of an EF5 caliber event and the rating should absolutely reflect that.
AJS
Member
Even with the trees being more difficult to debark, it still caused major debarking which is a big indicator on just how violent the tornado actually was.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Pisgah EF4 damage that I found while looking at GeoDESY:
I'm not 100% sure what the last image is even supposed to be (maybe debris originating from the bottom-left house?) but regardless it's obliterated. I personally rank this tornado as one of the stronger ones to occur that day, as there is extensive wind-rowing and I've even denoted potential patches where the ground has been ripped up, although the aerials aren't of the best quality and it's hard to definitively say.
I'm not 100% sure what the last image is even supposed to be (maybe debris originating from the bottom-left house?) but regardless it's obliterated. I personally rank this tornado as one of the stronger ones to occur that day, as there is extensive wind-rowing and I've even denoted potential patches where the ground has been ripped up, although the aerials aren't of the best quality and it's hard to definitively say.
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Did someone say complete debarking? Out of all the EF5 snubs, Vilonia, Goldsby, and Mayfield are in a class of their own. They conclusively check all the boxes several times over and then some. There's some others from 2011 I'd put in that category as well, but there just isn't as much documentation to prove it.
Ozonelayer
Member
I'd go as far as to say that Mayfield is in the top 3 most violent tornadoes of the 2020s period.
I have a couple images of the "Paste" from the Mayfield tornado, the second one could be considered scouring but the first does show paste.
WeathermanLeprechaun
Member
Mayfield is the most impressive December tornadic supercell I've ever seen. To produce two high end tornadoes, one nearly record breaking and the other heavily forgotten even though on other days, it would've been a headliner. It's absolutely unheard of for this time of year.
This tree debarking near Buckeye, AR is just incredible and yet this isn't talked about (mainstream, over here, it's well known)
This is once again a PERFECT example of a very violent tornado based off contextuals. I've came to learn contextuals are very important, and if anything, are the most accurate thing you can estimate a tornado on because houses have limit whereas there's a lot of range with contextuals, like tree type, cars, etc. Houses are still extremely important, but trying to estimating winds by engineering which clearly will not meet the actual wind speeds of a tornado most of the time is very faulty. If i haven't said it enough, this opens a major door for higher end ratings.
This tree debarking near Buckeye, AR is just incredible and yet this isn't talked about (mainstream, over here, it's well known)
This is once again a PERFECT example of a very violent tornado based off contextuals. I've came to learn contextuals are very important, and if anything, are the most accurate thing you can estimate a tornado on because houses have limit whereas there's a lot of range with contextuals, like tree type, cars, etc. Houses are still extremely important, but trying to estimating winds by engineering which clearly will not meet the actual wind speeds of a tornado most of the time is very faulty. If i haven't said it enough, this opens a major door for higher end ratings.
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Honestly, I think the Port Arthur supercell from last year may actually have been more impressive for December. In that tornado people were extremely lucky was over basically marsh land as I believe had that actually hit Port Arthur or anything when it was at full strength it would've done Mayfield level or EF5 level damage. However, since the terrain was so wet there is probably no way to even speculate at all.
tornado examiner
Member
Lots of things happening. Looks like the future of tornado surveying is bright. The era of extremely conservative ratings may finally be at an end.
I will say with the new DIs they are putting out there. I am quite excited to see that splitting 21A and 21B based on whether it is in a hurricane zone or not. I wonder if this is because of the Port St. Lucie tornado last year which got an EF3. But considering many of the building codes in Florida for hurricanes, I've been suspicious that it really should've been rated EF4. I would assume the damage you would see in a hurricane construction zone area would be far less significant and perhaps deceptive compared to damage you would see in the Midwest from a similar tornado.
AJS
Member
Just a couple of images to show just how violent the tornado was in Bremen. The last photo never ceases to amaze me as the cinder blocks are literally torn apart in Smithville fashion.
Lake Martin EF4
Member
The actual most deserving EF5 of the 2020s so far is Rolling Fork - Nick Kras, who has some...opinions on Rochelle and Chickasha, explicitly stated that the Family Dollar meets the new scale's EF5 criteria.
Mayfield is 2nd place - it WOULD be first, but there's no 100% agreeable (as in, near-universal agreement) EF5 DI. I (and you, and Ethan Moriarty, and several others) consider the Bremen house EF5able, but @buckeye05 had reservations about it based on its unorthodox construction. The UK building had a construction flaw and was disqualified. The train near Barnsley could have been tossed by EF2 winds, per an Ethan Moriarty calculation. Buckeye did not consider Cambridge Shores EF5able due to the lack of violent contextuals, nor did he consider Bremen EF5able on account of poor construction (he did, however, state that if Bremen's contextuals had overlapped with Cambridge Shores' construction, an EF5 rating would've been necessary). That leaves the church in Mayfield itself, and IIRC he stated there was a possible rust problem that could have exacerbated the tornado's impact.
AJS
Member
Genuine question: Which tornado do you feel was more violent? Rolling Fork or Mayfield?
Lake Martin EF4
Member
Mayfield, by a good margin. Matador, however, is a Top 10 strongest of all time tornado, but I didn't mention it since no EF5 structural damage was caused - although I'm not sure if what it did to that forest meets the EF5 DI in the upcoming forest damage category in the updated EF scale.