• Welcome to TalkWeather!
    We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion.
    CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER

Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like he essentially said that a clean subfloor can earn an EF5 rating if external sheathing (that light green covering you sometimes see on the exteriors of homes being built) is present or the wall studs are toe-nailed! That means a house can technically be rated EF5 WITHOUT ANCHOR BOLTS HOLDING THE WALLS DOWN!! That is an INCREDIBLE statement that significantly lowers the impossible to clear bar for EF5 house damage!
There have been a few examples of this occurring in past EF5-rated tornadoes where a home was given an EF5 DI despite the subfloor still remaining. Most notably in Greensburg, Parkersburg, and Joplin.

Here’s a great example from Greensburg. Close-up photo of the site shows wall-studs were toe-nailed to bottom plate, notably around where the stairs lead to the basement on the foundation. Aerial shows a clean sweep of all debris with reasonable contextual evidence. Result is an EF5 rating.
IMG_0085.jpegIMG_0090.jpeg

The homes south of town rated EF5 save for the exception of one all had their subfloors intact as well.
IMG_0086.jpeg

Here’s an example from Parkersburg of pretty much the same thing. This home was also rated EF5.
IMG_0087.jpeg
IMG_0088.jpeg

Aerial of additional homes rated EF5 with their subfloors remaining.
IMG_0092.jpeg

Even the example of EF5 damage shown in the survey paper is of a home with the subfloor still intact.
IMG_0093.jpeg

It is also worth noting these were all assigned their ratings by Tim Marshall.

I’m not really sure why it became a thing to not rate houses swept clean off their subfloors EF5, especially when it’s been done several times in the past. Like LaDue said, it shouldn’t take a fortress to be rated EF5 if the evidence is there for it.
 
Some thoughts...

In the interview Tim Marshall says leave ratings to the experts, but that's how Enderlin got under-rated the first time around. Had it not been for the dissenters it would likely not have been looked at again. And now more weight is being given to contextuals which we were previously told were unreliable. It's clear that there is validity in some of the "non-expert" opinions on the matter of rating tornadoes which had been summarily dismissed in the past, and now we're hearing that same message again. I'll never support the knee-jerk "It's gotta be an EF-5" bunch but Ill also never support anyone who summarily dismisses the thoughts of others because they're not "experts". I'll take the win with Enderlin regardless as it seems certain minds have become more open though IMHO not quite enough. The systemic problem still remains becausethe method of thinking has not changed. Go ahead and bash me all you want; I rarely come here anymore for a reason.

On railcars there seems to be a few things missing in calculations of what it takes to topple them. First is that these cars are sprung and will move with the wind force then spring back against it. If that sets up an oscillation the toppling effects could be exacerbated. There's also something to be considered with wheel derailment- as the windward side wheels get lifted past their engagement with the track the leeward side wheels can dislodge and drop ~6 inches as they derail adding to the toppling effect. These movements might not be far but given the mass involved could be very energetic. Maybe this could go some way to explaining the wide variety of wind speeds which topple railcars, but it's clear that they can't be treated the same as an object of the same shape and size sitting on a solid foundation unsprung which wouldn't have any of this possible movement.. While this may seem to add complexity to assessing windspeeds a wheel derailment would likely leave evidence of it happening behind either in displaced ballast (gravel) or be impressed onto a wooden crosstie and with that a more accurate model could be made when such evidence was found. We also need to consider that having other cars coupled together will change things, possibly a lot.

We've got similar movements regards cars being overturned; the surface area against the relatively flat bottom of a car will be greater than for it's side which will be greater than for it's read profile which will be greater than it'sfront profile which is designed aerodynamically. Weight distribution will vary a lot between types which anyone who has driven a pick-upon a gravel or rain-slickened road will easily understand. It would only be when lofting occurs that these differences might not be so disparate as we could probably presume there would be some 'tumbling' ofthe car through the air in most cases rsulting in the average wind-catching area being similar at that point with most 'car type' vehicles.

Ethan Moriarty makes it clear that his calcualtions are somewhat simplified, but they mostly seem to match what occurs fairly well so they are worthy of consideration. And while we know there can be a vertical wind component, calculating only for the horizontal wind would help to preclude over-estimating windspeeds which is probably the best approach for now given the controversy involved. That these types of calculations mostly match the seen results there is enough merit to them to bear consideration.

Anyway thanks for reading. Over and out.
 
Really not a fan of his opening statement.

"We've seen on the record, the evidence is mounting. We're seeing a reduction of strong and violent tornadoes at the expense of weaker ones, and we see that through multiple lines of evidence."

Sounds to me like he's defending the rating disparity and arguing against the points in Lyza's papers. I could be wrong though. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. It's also strange that he's saying subfloors with toe nails are well into the EF4 category now when the QRT he advises has rated plenty as EF3. He also says hurricane clips and anchored studs are enough for EF5, but we've definitely seen plenty of those over the last 12 years with no 5 rating.
I actually think he’s agreeing with it. Considering in Lyza’s paper on the EF5 drought, he is the first one mentioned in the acknowledgments section. Which tells me he was consulted in some capacity with Lyza on it.

1760112878456.png
 
Some thoughts...

In the interview Tim Marshall says leave ratings to the experts, but that's how Enderlin got under-rated the first time around. Had it not been for the dissenters it would likely not have been looked at again.
Just a slight correction, Enderlin was never finalized until the EF5. It was preliminarily an EF3 while FGF commenced their investigation on the train cars. The entire process was “the first time around”
 
Some thoughts...

In the interview Tim Marshall says leave ratings to the experts, but that's how Enderlin got under-rated the first time around. Had it not been for the dissenters it would likely not have been looked at again. And now more weight is being given to contextuals which we were previously told were unreliable. It's clear that there is validity in some of the "non-expert" opinions on the matter of rating tornadoes which had been summarily dismissed in the past, and now we're hearing that same message again. I'll never support the knee-jerk "It's gotta be an EF-5" bunch but Ill also never support anyone who summarily dismisses the thoughts of others because they're not "experts". I'll take the win with Enderlin regardless as it seems certain minds have become more open though IMHO not quite enough. The systemic problem still remains becausethe method of thinking has not changed. Go ahead and bash me all you want; I rarely come here anymore for a reason.

On railcars there seems to be a few things missing in calculations of what it takes to topple them. First is that these cars are sprung and will move with the wind force then spring back against it. If that sets up an oscillation the toppling effects could be exacerbated. There's also something to be considered with wheel derailment- as the windward side wheels get lifted past their engagement with the track the leeward side wheels can dislodge and drop ~6 inches as they derail adding to the toppling effect. These movements might not be far but given the mass involved could be very energetic. Maybe this could go some way to explaining the wide variety of wind speeds which topple railcars, but it's clear that they can't be treated the same as an object of the same shape and size sitting on a solid foundation unsprung which wouldn't have any of this possible movement.. While this may seem to add complexity to assessing windspeeds a wheel derailment would likely leave evidence of it happening behind either in displaced ballast (gravel) or be impressed onto a wooden crosstie and with that a more accurate model could be made when such evidence was found. We also need to consider that having other cars coupled together will change things, possibly a lot.

We've got similar movements regards cars being overturned; the surface area against the relatively flat bottom of a car will be greater than for it's side which will be greater than for it's read profile which will be greater than it'sfront profile which is designed aerodynamically. Weight distribution will vary a lot between types which anyone who has driven a pick-upon a gravel or rain-slickened road will easily understand. It would only be when lofting occurs that these differences might not be so disparate as we could probably presume there would be some 'tumbling' ofthe car through the air in most cases rsulting in the average wind-catching area being similar at that point with most 'car type' vehicles.

Ethan Moriarty makes it clear that his calcualtions are somewhat simplified, but they mostly seem to match what occurs fairly well so they are worthy of consideration. And while we know there can be a vertical wind component, calculating only for the horizontal wind would help to preclude over-estimating windspeeds which is probably the best approach for now given the controversy involved. That these types of calculations mostly match the seen results there is enough merit to them to bear consideration.

Anyway thanks for reading. Over and out.
Dude it's so good to see you back here and hopefully you choose to stick around! As always your insight on this is super valuable and interesting. I've referenced your comment about toenails and 16D nails countless times. It especially came up a lot after the Marion EF4 this year.
 
I actually think he’s agreeing with it. Considering in Lyza’s paper on the EF5 drought, he is the first one mentioned in the acknowledgments section. Which tells me he was consulted in some capacity with Lyza on it.

View attachment 47091
Oh ok well that's good to see. Maybe he just mispoke. The fact he collaborated with Lyza says a lot and changes my perspective on him completely
 
I’m not really sure why it became a thing to not rate houses swept clean off their subfloors EF5, especially when it’s been done several times in the past. Like LaDue said, it shouldn’t take a fortress to be rated EF5 if the evidence is there for it.
Excellent post. I think the Vilonia precedent, combined with the ASCE study on Joplin which curiously came out I believe in June 2013, made it impossible to give a home EF5.
 
View attachment 47092
Highlighting the train derailment in the Earlington area again, but if you notice, there appears to be some coal cars that have also been derailed and moved slightly. These are typically known for being extremely heavy and can range from 100-150 tons.
You can also see that it is full (The Black stuff near the top of the car).
 
The whole problem with the idea of re-rating past tornadoes is. Without extensive photography of an extreme damage feat that gives surveyors something specific too measure, how are they gonna be able to do so months after everything has been cleaned up and rebuilt? Are they just gonna take a less scientific approach and make changes based on feel, or what limited photo evidence they have?

It's gonna be very hard.
Because they still have to be somewhat objective with these things.
Well, this is where assistance with the Canadian Northern Tornadoes Project may come in handy. Much of the motivation for the NTP's research is the fact that in Canadian tornadoes are underreported it is hard to assign strength ratings to these extremely rural tornadoes because Canada is so large and remote that things that are common for DIs in the United States are not present in Canada to the same degree which can skew the Canadian tornado climatology. Therefore other ways of measuring the strength of tornadoes probably can be found, I know the NTP has recently started identifying paths of rural Canadian tornadoes with AI and satellite imagery. But I'm curious if tree damage could actually be more standardized with satellite and AI models by doing comparisons of historic tornadoes and more intensive forensic assessment. (Ex. seeing how different types of trees hold up to high winds/debarking etc...) and relating these forensic assessments with satellite imagery to potentially allow AI to standardize the damage ratings without the human bias. Just a thought.
 
View attachment 47083
I think one feat of damage from the Mayfield tornado that could potentially be used to help justify an upgrade would be the 18 ton tractor trailer that was hurled more than 1320 yards from the UK research center in Princeton.
Oh wow this map is useful because elevation can be mapped on ArcGIS and plugged into the new algorithm. Do you have any pics of the trailer so we can figure out the model.

Also when objects are thrown this far is it an indication of strong sustained winds or more a case of an extremely strong short burst absolutely yeeting the thing? I can't decide which would be more impressive!
 
  • Like
Reactions: AJS
Oh wow this map is useful because elevation can be mapped on ArcGIS and plugged into the new algorithm. Do you have any pics of the trailer so we can figure out the model.

Also when objects are thrown this far is it an indication of strong sustained winds or more a case of an extremely strong short burst absolutely yeeting the thing? I can't decide which would be more impressive!
I unfortunately do not have a picture of the trailer. I am currently trying to find a picture of it, I just know that it’s confirmed it was a trailer.
 
IMG_0148.jpeg
Never seen this angle of the damage in Bremen. This is genuinely some extremely violent scouring. It looks like it was scoured down to the bare soil.
 
IMG_0149.jpegIMG_0146.jpegIMG_0150.jpeg


IMG_0151.jpeg
And credit to @Union for posting these images. These images of vehicle damage from the candle factory are genuinely some of the most impressive i’ve seen from this tornado. I believe the 4th image is the remains of an utterly mangled tanker truck wrapped around farm equipment. I genuinely wonder what kind of winds were needed to cause this feat of damage.
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of contextuals that have now convinced me Mayfield was certainly a EF5, and while I didn't think it once, a few of you with these images have made me think a contextual EF5 rating for Mayfield would've seemed fine. That NTP paper is a big turning point for the EF scale, and this has already led to successful and (valid) EF ratings regardless of people complaining about the EF scale being inconsistent on THAT dreaded place. Reanalysis isn't a high certainty, but the fact that there is consideration gives me major hope for the next few years.
 
There's a lot of contextuals that have now convinced me Mayfield was certainly a EF5, and while I didn't think it once, a few of you with these images have made me think a contextual EF5 rating for Mayfield would've seemed fine. That NTP paper is a big turning point for the EF scale, and this has already led to successful and (valid) EF ratings regardless of people complaining about the EF scale being inconsistent on THAT dreaded place. Reanalysis isn't a high certainty, but the fact that there is consideration gives me major hope for the next few years.
Honestly, it’s a bit of a stretch and I may be wrong, but I genuinely wonder if the church that was completely leveled in downtown Mayfield may have been a genuine EF5 DI. I mean, you rarely see multi story, brick structures collapsed and destroyed at that level.

And agreed. contextually speaking, especially in the Bremen area, Mayfield was as classic as it gets when it comes to identifying EF5 contextual damage. AKA, “ The look. “
 
Honestly, it’s a bit of a stretch and I may be wrong, but I genuinely wonder if the church that was completely leveled in downtown Mayfield may have been a genuine EF5 DI. I mean, you rarely see multi story, brick structures collapsed and destroyed at that level.
It's absolutely possible, but we'll have to get a bit more in depth about the building itself with full certainty plus decent evidence to support it. I do see it as a potential candidate but still uncertain on that regard
 
  • Like
Reactions: AJS
It's absolutely possible, but we'll have to get a bit more in depth about the building itself with full certainty plus decent evidence to support it. I do see it as a potential candidate but still uncertain on that regard
Agreed, it’s definitely possible it could be a genuine EF5 DI. I’d love to see a more in depth/detailed analysis over the whole building.
 
Back
Top