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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

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Damage from the Trenton EF4. I have no doubt in my mind this tornado reached EF5 intensity (kinda like Cordova) at some point along its path, although the damage doesn't really suggest that. Was close in prosimity to the Fackler EF4, Rainsville EF5, Ringgold EF4, and was produced by the Cullman EF4 supercell.
It’s crazy how that corner of Northeast Alabama & NorthWest Georgia had that many violent tornados that day. If you look at a radar, that area pretty much stayed rainy all day long, especially from the midday MCS. So the parameters were not as extreme as western and central Alabama. Probably a combination of extremely mature supercells interacting with an OFB & sand mountain terrain magic led to so many violent tornados in that area.

I can’t recall which of the Jackson County tornados it was that day, but Chris Darden (NWS Huntsville MIC at the time) stated his belief it was a 5 to TornadoTalk. They didn’t award it as such because there was some anchoring issues with the home and a bit of cow fence was left standing nearby.
 
I can’t recall which of the Jackson County tornados it was that day, but Chris Darden (NWS Huntsville MIC at the time) stated his belief it was a 5 to TornadoTalk. They didn’t award it as such because there was some anchoring issues with the home and a bit of cow fence was left standing nearby.
That was Flat Rock-Trenton.
 
Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.
nice reddit post.jpg

Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
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Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.


Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
Fujita would’ve rated it a 5! (Sarcasm)

Reddit is a dumpster fire. Some of the smaller communities are okay (like under 500 members), but any more than that and it turns into a typical internet echo chamber.

On another note, @TH2002, do you have any thoughts on the aforementioned Flat Rock-Trenton home that NWS gave a 4 to?
 
Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.


Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
That’s definitely EF3 damage.

Also, “..So I can spam emails to…” regardless of what comes before or after that statement, no one can justify this behavior. No wonder no one takes weenies seriously in the community. What a headache to deal with.
 
Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.
View attachment 45740

Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
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r/EF5 is a satire subreddit that was started when r/tornado mods started over moderating the hell out of any and all rating discussions. For context, the word "slab" and "slabbed" is banned from r/tornado. r/EF5 is pretty much exclusively $hitposting from all the people who are fed up with the EF scale. If you go there and sort by top posts of all time there's some pretty hilarious posts.
 
Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.
View attachment 45740

Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
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That's just r/EF5; they freaked out when Diaz wasn't rated EF5 (although the memes that came out of that were admittedly funny). Mostly a shiz-post subreddit, although atp r/Tornado is equally as bad. Also, apparently the Morton tornado ejected a hailstone at 202 mph, so possibly another EF5 candidate that was completely overlooked because it didn't "look like an EF5 and produce EF5 structure damage that the weenies can fight over".
 
Just a typical Reddit discussion I happened to come across. If it's satire, they got me. If not, then here's a friendly reminder that this type of stuff does not belong on Talkweather.
View attachment 45740

Oh, and here's the "how dare they rate this EF3" photo the poster was referring to. Unanchored slider on an unreinforced block foundation... EF3 seems like the right call to me, but hey, maybe Tim's gotten to me.
6.jpg
That looks like mid to high-end EF3 damage(150 TO 160 MPH) IMO. Theie is little to no ground scouring, Very little tree debarking, and insufficient anchoring. My only problem with surveyors that violent vehicle damage, violent tree debarking, violent ground scouring, and other types of incredible phenomena should be taken into account, despite the construction of the house or building. The evidence in this photo does not point to anything I would call violent.
 
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That looks like mid to high-end EF3 damage(150 TO 160 MPH) IMO. Theie is little to no ground scouring, Very little tree debarking, and insufficient anchoring. My only problem with surveyors that violent vehicle damage, violent tree debarking, violent ground scouring, and other types of incredible phenomena should be taken into account, despite the construction of the house or building. The evidence in this photo does not point to anything I would call violent.
Sorry about the CAPS.
 

More of Tony Lyza tearing apart recent interpretations of the EF-scale, as it is skewing frequencies of not only F/EF5 tornadoes, but 3s and 4s too. It is fundamentally altering the climatology and its associated risk profile in terms of fatalities/etc.

Does anyone have the lyza article pdf or somewhere to read it for free? The abstract alone is crazy. This part really confirms my suspicions that tornado ratings are the worst they've ever been.

Evaluation of an extended violent-tornado [(E)F4–(E)F5] climatology back to 1880 reveals that the current frequency of (E)F4–(E)F5 ratings is the lowest it has been across the entire extended 144-year period, and depending on the analysis method, the recent fatality rate for a typical EF4 tornado is the highest fatality rate associated with (E)F4 tornadoes in the past 55–72 years.

It's completely wild to me that (E)F4 tornadoes are even deadlier than they were before Doppler Radar! I understand it, though. The fact the underrating of tornadoes has gone from a niche subject that only the most hardcore weather nerds were aware of 10 years ago, to basically mainstream now, just goes to show how intense the last five years or so of tornadoes have been. We have been seeing some of the top 5% most violent tornadoes ever recorded with increasing frequency. They almost feel common now. The fatality rates actually confirm that it's not just a case of violent tornadoes "not hitting the right structures."

The impacts are the same as they've always been. Vilonia, Mayfield, and Tuscaloosa, hell even the London/Selmer tornado this year, had similar death tolls to the EF5 poster child of Moore 2013. Mayfield and Tuscaloosa individually had 3 times as many casualties as Moore 2013. It's an engineer's mindset to reserve the highest ratings for higher building density rather than actual human impact.

What I'm saying is, if we were actually rating tornadoes with any sort of consistency, say along a trendline of the average criteria from the last 50 years, we'd be seeing a dramatic and alarming spike in violent tornadoes over the last few years. I'm not sure there's ever been a 5 year period with as many violent tornadoes as we've seen from 2020-2025.
 
Lyza's article has inspired me. I subscribed to Tornado Talk premium and am going through all the EF era tornadoes in their database. I'm going to re-rate them based on these criteria from the original Fujita scale. I think the most important element will be the original scale's use of cars, trains, debarking, and "incredible phenomena" as rating criteria. I've also attached the EF scale rating descriptions so we can also see if ratings are consistent with those.

I know this won't be perfect, but my goal isn't to be perfect. The goal is consistency. I've organized these tornadoes by state, so hopefully this will also help shed some light on some of the worst offending WFOs. In the interest of saving time I won't be posting tornadoes that were rated correctly, just the ones that were clearly underrated.

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Van Buren, Arkansas EF4 - 02/05/2008 (Super Tuesday outbreak)
Path length: 121.8 miles
Fatalities: 13
Injuries: 139

In the Happy Bend community, a man left his mobile home and took shelter in a large, metal, intermodal shipping container. The container was blown hundreds of yards into the woods and the man was killed.

On the SE side of Mountain view a car dealership was destroyed and cars from the sales lot were thrown across the highway. One was lifted over a building and tossed into a ravine. A utility pole was pulled out of the ground and then a large part of the pole was "jammed back into the ground with all the wires still attached". A church was destroyed, as well as a boat plant.

The Stone County Medical Center had extensive damage, several doctors' offices were destroyed, major damage occurred to a fire station, body shop, paint shop, and car parts store.

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^^ This is the boat plant that was destroyed

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^^ A new home was ripped from the foundation and thrown into a field

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^^There was nothing left of a dentist's office
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^^ A slabbed home in Izard County
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^^ License plate driven into tree

Here's an article about the survey. Some noteworthy excerpts:

Damage surveyors from the National Weather Service in Little Rock were awed by the destruction, and by what they heard from people directly affected by the storm.

Most of the stories were similar. Some people lost their vehicles; that is, the vehicles were thrown so far they have not been found[...]

There were bizarre stories as well. At Clinton (Van Buren County), two people were huddled around a commode in the bathroom before the storm arrived. After the storm departed, the bathroom was gone and so was the commode...but the people were still there (and only had minor injuries). Also at Clinton (Van Buren County), a lady had small pieces of newspaper buried in her leg...and the print could be read just under her skin.

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In the picture: A car from the destroyed dealership in Mountain View (Stone County) was thrown over some professional buildings across the street and ended up in a ravine.

New rating: (E)F5

Reasons: Automobile sized missiles fly through the air in excess of 100 meters. Incredible Phenomena. Houses swept clean. Concrete buildings heavily damaged or destroyed.

 
Barnesville, GA EF3 - April 28, 2011
Path length: 30.82
Fatalities: 2
Injuries: 22

The tornado produced EF2-EF3 damage for most of its path but as it crossed Old Milner Road it became tremendously powerful. A forest was razed to the ground, and trunks were mashed together in a convergent pattern. A small core of suction vortices tore much of the bark from trees and left cycloidal markings in the grass. The article explicitly prohibits sharing images from certain contributors so I had to find Truman Boyle's aerial imagery myself. All images from the video were screenshotted myself. Here's the link:



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Damage around the Grove street area was especially intense. A family sheltered in a bathroom as the tornado hit. They laid flat in the tub, and the home was ripped away around them. The sizable frame house was shredded away until only a tattered bathroom was left. There a more images I can't share, but multiple homes in this area were flattened entirely other than just a few small interior rooms.


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Patty and Marty Gunter experienced the tornado in their home. They ran downstairs, but couldn't make it to their safe place in time. They were in the kitchen and Pattie recalls the pressure being so strong it felt like her feet were nailed to the floor. Patti crouched down on the floor covering her head and the next thing she remembers is sitting on the ground in the foundation of the house. "There was no floor. Just dirt." Marty had a similar experience . In the blink of an eye the couple's home was ripped out from under them and they both survived, standing on bare dirt where the house had been. The only thing remaining was a few foundation blocks. One of their cars was found upside down 50 feet away, and the other was upside down in the woods 100 feet away.

Here's their house:

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The home had a CMU foundation with grout and rebar. The house was secured to the foundation with "big bolts and washers every so often", which Tornado Talk has confirmed with photographic evidence. No substantial remains were deposited anywhere, only small pieces scattered in the forest hundreds of yards away. Damage patterns indicated a suction vortex completed a trochoidal loop over this spot. A stone tree ring planter filled with mulch and a medium sized tree inside took a direct hit, and disappeared with only some disturbed dirt and a few splinters left.

About 110 yards SE the most impressive structural damage occurred (pictured below). The house was less than two years old, and it was built to hurricane specifications. The foundation was built of firmly reinforced and fully filled/sealed concrete masonry, encased on the outside by brick veneer. It rose a little less than a foot above the ground. Some additional reinforced masonry columns were located in the open space inside the foundation. The house disappeared, with only a few remaining pieces of plumbing and brick inside the foundation. The rest of the house was granulated with tiny fragments scattered into the forest.

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Before and After imagery of the area from Google maps

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Another home further in the path was completely swept clean aside from a small corner of the house


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There are many many more images in the article that I can't share and they're all mind-blowing. Including a screwdriver, old photo, and paper stuck into fully debarked trees.


New rating: (E)F5

Reasons: Strong framed homes swept clean, trees completely debarked, incredible phenomena.
 
Barnesville, GA EF3 - April 28, 2011
Path length: 30.82
Fatalities: 2
Injuries: 22

The tornado produced EF2-EF3 damage for most of its path but as it crossed Old Milner Road it became tremendously powerful. A forest was razed to the ground, and trunks were mashed together in a convergent pattern. A small core of suction vortices tore much of the bark from trees and left cycloidal markings in the grass. The article explicitly prohibits sharing images from certain contributors so I had to find Truman Boyle's aerial imagery myself. All images from the video were screenshotted myself. Here's the link:



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Damage around the Grove street area was especially intense. A family sheltered in a bathroom as the tornado hit. They laid flat in the tub, and the home was ripped away around them. The sizable frame house was shredded away until only a tattered bathroom was left. There a more images I can't share, but multiple homes in this area were flattened entirely other than just a few small interior rooms.


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Patty and Marty Gunter experienced the tornado in their home. They ran downstairs, but couldn't make it to their safe place in time. They were in the kitchen and Pattie recalls the pressure being so strong it felt like her feet were nailed to the floor. Patti crouched down on the floor covering her head and the next thing she remembers is sitting on the ground in the foundation of the house. "There was no floor. Just dirt." Marty had a similar experience . In the blink of an eye the couple's home was ripped out from under them and they both survived, standing on bare dirt where the house had been. The only thing remaining was a few foundation blocks. One of their cars was found upside down 50 feet away, and the other was upside down in the woods 100 feet away.

Here's their house:

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The home had a CMU foundation with grout and rebar. The house was secured to the foundation with "big bolts and washers every so often", which Tornado Talk has confirmed with photographic evidence. No substantial remains were deposited anywhere, only small pieces scattered in the forest hundreds of yards away. Damage patterns indicated a suction vortex completed a trochoidal loop over this spot. A stone tree ring planter filled with mulch and a medium sized tree inside took a direct hit, and disappeared with only some disturbed dirt and a few splinters left.

About 110 yards SE the most impressive structural damage occurred (pictured below). The house was less than two years old, and it was built to hurricane specifications. The foundation was built of firmly reinforced and fully filled/sealed concrete masonry, encased on the outside by brick veneer. It rose a little less than a foot above the ground. Some additional reinforced masonry columns were located in the open space inside the foundation. The house disappeared, with only a few remaining pieces of plumbing and brick inside the foundation. The rest of the house was granulated with tiny fragments scattered into the forest.

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Before and After imagery of the area from Google maps

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Another home further in the path was completely swept clean aside from a small corner of the house


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There are many many more images in the article that I can't share and they're all mind-blowing. Including a screwdriver, old photo, and paper stuck into fully debarked trees.


New rating: (E)F5

Reasons: Strong framed homes swept clean, trees completely debarked, incredible phenomena.

Barnesville, Trenton, Enterprise, Cordova, Haleyville and Sawyerville are all violent tornadoes from that day that definitely need a more in-depth look. Sawyerville and Trenton in particular were almost certainly of EF5 intensity, and the latter has been cited as potentially one of the strongest of the whole outbreak outside of Smithville.
 
Pine Log, GA EF3 - 04/27/2011
Path length: 23.05 miles
fatalities: 0
Injuries: 25

Multiple two story homes were ripped from their foundations. The New Covenant Church was swept off its foundation. Two concrete steps were all that remained. At its peak intensity, the tornado swept away 7 homes. One even had its flooring and carpet removed from its slab.

The NWS rated the area in the photo below 150 mph. The lower bound for slab swept clean is 165, so the rating is egregiously bad. Nothing suggests these homes were poorly constructed. Substantially debarked trees, windrowing, and the removal of carpeting and fixtures is supportive of a violent tornado. Contextuals also supported a violent rating given the fact shrubs were ripped up and significant debarking occurred around the houses.

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New rating: (E)F5

Reasons: Strong framed houses tossed off foundation, tree debarking.
 
Barnesville, Trenton, Enterprise, Cordova, Haleyville and Sawyerville are all violent tornadoes from that day that definitely need a more in-depth look. Sawyerville and Trenton in particular were almost certainly of EF5 intensity, and the latter has been cited as potentially one of the strongest of the whole outbreak outside of Smithville.
1. What is your (Eoline-)Sawyerville opinion based off of?
2. Who's saying (Flat Rock-)Trenton was one of the strongest of the outbreak? It's borderline EF5, yes, but all of the official EF5s minus Philadelphia, and even some of the EF4s and New Wren, stomp it into the ground.
New rating: (E)F5

Reasons: Strong framed houses tossed off foundation, tree debarking.
I wouldn't go that high. To quoth someone referring to Matador, that damage "looks like EF4 damage to me." Perhaps @TH2002 could be of assistance?
 
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