The real question there is how much difference did the lockdowns make vs. lesser restrictions, and I know me and you have very different thoughts on that subject. For the sake of normalcy, I hope you are right that it is driven a lot by vaccines. We'll have a very clear picture about 2 months from today, both in Israel, and to a lesser extent the southern US.
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COVID-19 detected in United States
- Thread starter WesL
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The real question there is how much difference did the lockdowns make vs. lesser restrictions, and I know me and you have very different thoughts on that subject. For the sake of normalcy, I hope you are right that it is driven a lot by vaccines. We'll have a very clear picture about 2 months from today, both in Israel, and to a lesser extent the southern US.
Jason Tatum with the Boston Celtics still isn't 100% from his bout with COVID earlier this year. As of 3 weeks ago, he was still using an inhaler. And this note about Justin Foster comes out today. Young, healthy ATHLETES are being knocked back by COVID. Facts are stubborn.
DE Foster back at Clemson (long-haul COVID-19)
Clemson defensive end Justin Foster, who retired from football in February due to COVID-related reasons, is returning to the team in June.
maroonedinhsv
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How can you possibly continue to make your absurd claims when you are constantly proven to be incorrect? I know the real answer, but I’d like to hear your explanation.Will be interesting what happens after a year or 2 with how people’s bodies respond to the vaccines and the boosters or next round of shots. Canada says it appears likely they will have to combine vaccines since they will be shortages of certain ones. Will be interesting if anything happens crossing vaccines. It’s not been tested yet so we shall see. Also have this to look into. Really no reason anyone under 30 that is healthy should take the vaccine. The chances as have been shown of dying or having issues from Covid are almost a zero.
Pentagon Tracking 14 Cases of Heart Inflammation in Troops After COVID-19 Shots
The heart condition is a complication of a coronavirus infection but also is being investigated for any link to the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines.www.military.com
The red states are back to normal. A healthy 30 yo should not until further trials are done and see what happens with long term effects of people that received the vaccines. Believing the true numbers of what the media says is assuming. Just as was exposed about CNN inflating numbers. Just like now it’s learned that these vaccines were never tested on pregnant woman. More and more is now starting to leak out that our govt. especially can not cover along with the media and social media. There has been more deaths with these vaccines in the last 4 months than the last 15 years. That is not some conspiracy news. That is facts. Yet in 1976 the swine flu vaccine was shut down when out of 40+ million were given the vaccine and 53 died. What changed to make these vaccines so awesome. Sure science and medicine is better these days but forcing vaccines on people is not America and freedom. Biden one min wearing a mask outside then next to Carter he’s not. Harris kissing husband wearing a mask when they are both supposedly vaccinated. One can say it’s just honest mistakes but common sense says there is more to it than we all know. Everyone should know to not trust the govt. If do then research operations paperclip and mk ultra. All declassified. I’m not against vaccines but I am against having it shoved in my face and my kids and told not to question. Call me ignorant and uneducated. I admit I’m not the most book smart but one thing I am is street smart and have common sense. Something that is lacking with many these days. Again those that want to get vaccinated do it. You are safe and will be fine.
Sure some get Covid that I will not deny because I would be lying but the vaccines are not so innocent either. We shall see but the faucet is dripping and getting more steady of what vaccines are doing and eventually the valve will open up fully and there will be no shutting it off. If I am wrong in 1-2 years I will own it and take the vaccine.
So what was the absurd claim I made there. It’s true Canada has said they possibly might have to mix vaccines. It’s true it’s not been done on people. It’s also true that people under 30 are at a very extreme small % of having effects and lingering effects from Covid. Sure some do and will. Same with flu. I don’t look at any conspiracy sites of that is what you are thinking. Believe it or not there is actually real people telling their stories on FB, Instagram, Telegram, YouTube. As soon they are discovered they get banned on certain social media. These are real stories not fake. You would be surprised if you actually opened your eyes. Yes there are stories on those of what Covid did to them. You act as if there is only one camp. Covid vaccines are the only way. There are actually 2 camps. You still did not answer how do you get the ones that took the vaccine and almost died and saying they will never take again to take the booster or vaccine? Also Tucker had a segment on the vaccines tonight. Had plenty of numbers on deaths and reactions from them. All from accredited sites. Before you trash him. He took the vaccine.
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Do you have a link for this claim?
maroonedinhsv
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The absurd claim is "Really no reason anyone under 30 that is healthy should take the vaccine. The chances as have been shown of dying or having issues from Covid are almost a zero." I don't know how else to explain the first sentence to you - I am 49, but I did not get vaccinated because I'm worried about dying from Covid. I took the vaccine for my 83 year old father. I took the vaccine for the immuno compromised child that goes to school with my daughter. I took the vaccine for the elderly lady that works at the convenience store near my house. It has nothing to do with how healthy I am. You continue to say "if they have the vaccine, I don't need it" - that's not true. It's been stated repeatedly, I explained the math behind it, and you still don't get it.
As for what Tucker said - you are incorrect. He did absolutely NOT have numbers on deaths from the vaccine. He had statistics from the VAERS database which lists the number of people that died who have been vaccinated. There is no correlation or causation documented or even implied. If you apply your street smarts in this manner, then you'll quickly arrive at the view that drinking water or breathing air kills EVERYONE! Show me numbers for how many people have died due to the vaccine, not the number that have died after being vaccinated. Hint: It will be a lot closer to "almost a zero" than the chance of someone under 30 dying from Covid.
I do NOT act as if there is only one camp regarding vaccination. Show me where I've ever told to you get vaccinated. You won't find it, because I really don't give a flying squirrel testicle if you get vaccinated or not. Where there is only one camp is when it comes to facts. You constantly state that things as facts that are not. You keep saying that you're street smart and that you have common sense, but you keep proving otherwise.
thundersnow
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Yeah- the point that keeps getting missed here is that the primary reason for someone young and healthy to get the vaccine isn't necessarily for their own protection from getting the virus. It's to arm more immune systems to fight this in the interest of herd immunity.
The less a population is resistant to the virus, the longer the virus will continue to linger, which A) allows it to mutate into more variants, and B) allows more time for immunity to wear off. So, if we do have to get boosters in a year because the virus is still raging, you can blame that on that fact that there's been a segment of the population that's still been the breeding ground all that time, when they could have taken a step to help that.
Also, saying, "I'm not going to bother taking the vaccine because so many don't and the virus is still going to be spreading," is like a firefighter saying, "well, I'm not going to bother doing what I can to stop this forest fire because there are other people that aren't doing anything about it."
The less a population is resistant to the virus, the longer the virus will continue to linger, which A) allows it to mutate into more variants, and B) allows more time for immunity to wear off. So, if we do have to get boosters in a year because the virus is still raging, you can blame that on that fact that there's been a segment of the population that's still been the breeding ground all that time, when they could have taken a step to help that.
Also, saying, "I'm not going to bother taking the vaccine because so many don't and the virus is still going to be spreading," is like a firefighter saying, "well, I'm not going to bother doing what I can to stop this forest fire because there are other people that aren't doing anything about it."
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thundersnow
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I think it's funny and ironic that a lot of the same crowd that is now saying look at the deaths after the vaccine as an assumption that the vaccine "caused" those deaths are some of the same people who were saying just months ago, "Did they did OF Covid or WITH Covid?"... almost to the point that if you died of Covid, then it wasn't Covid that killed you but underlying conditions. They worked hard to look for Covid being less fatal... but, the minute deaths follow the vaccine, then it's clearly the vaccine that caused their death. A double standard in logic there, I think.
I'm not sure if there's any other word that describes the CDC better than incompetent at this point. They released a report yesterday that stated they expect a surge in cases in May due to the UK variant, and then that cases should decline in summer. This report was based on data through March 27, and all four "projection cases" in it are already wrong and getting more wrong by the day as cases decrease across the country. Note that the UK variant is the dominant strain across the US at the moment and has been for more than a month
Here's the CNBC article on it https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/05/cdc...t1point7-variant-before-a-sharp-decline-.html
Here's the actually CDC study that was released yesterday https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7019e3.htm?s_cid=mm7019e3_w#F1_down
How the CDC decided to go ahead and publish this yesterday, when it is clearly already wrong, is quite frustrating.
Cases will continue to fall through May, and sometime in June will begin to rise again.
Here's the CNBC article on it https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/05/cdc...t1point7-variant-before-a-sharp-decline-.html
Here's the actually CDC study that was released yesterday https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7019e3.htm?s_cid=mm7019e3_w#F1_down
How the CDC decided to go ahead and publish this yesterday, when it is clearly already wrong, is quite frustrating.
Cases will continue to fall through May, and sometime in June will begin to rise again.
I agree with you, though I also think it's a double standard to argue that 600k people have died of COVID in the US, but that the only deaths that should be counted from vaccines are purely the vaccine only. I do agree that that's the only thing that should matter for vaccines, but it is a completely different way of counting deaths from what we've been doing with COVID.
maroonedinhsv
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Agreed. Covid deaths should only be counted if the virus was a contributing factor - someone with Covid killed in a car wreck should not be tallied as a virus-related death (unless it can be determined that the effects of the virus somehow caused the wreck). Likewise, vaccination deaths should only be counted if the death is determined to be caused by the vaccine (and I'd even let freak accidents occurring during the administration of the vaccine be included).
thundersnow
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I wonder though... has that actually happened? I mean really? I can't imagine anyone in any reasonable universe in good conscience putting Covid on a death certificate of someone who clearly died from injuries sustained in an accident, just because they tested positive for Covid. I'm not picking on you, since I've seen that suggestion floated too, not sure if a tongue-in-cheek thing, but it appears to be an absurd talking point of covid-deniers.
In most states, any person that dies within 30 (or some 60) days of getting a COVID positive test is counted as a COVID death, regardless of cause of death. So yes, quite a few accidental deaths have occurred within that 30-60 day window and have counted as COVID deaths.
Edited to add: Some states do a better job of catching non-related deaths than others, and you'll occasionally see deaths removed at later dates as they run across deaths that aren't related.
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thundersnow
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Gotcha, so it's really a flaw in reporting then.
I would think/hope that would be a pretty small percentage of the total where that's the case though.
Evan
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Will be interesting what happens after a year or 2 with how people’s bodies respond to the vaccines and the boosters or next round of shots. Canada says it appears likely they will have to combine vaccines since they will be shortages of certain ones. Will be interesting if anything happens crossing vaccines. It’s not been tested yet so we shall see. Also have this to look into. Really no reason anyone under 30 that is healthy should take the vaccine. The chances as have been shown of dying or having issues from Covid are almost a zero.
Pentagon Tracking 14 Cases of Heart Inflammation in Troops After COVID-19 Shots
The heart condition is a complication of a coronavirus infection but also is being investigated for any link to the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines.
Over 2400 people under the age of 30 have been confirmed to have died due to COVID.
A few additional points...
1. Saying "under 30" is an odd way to establish a cohort when you consider 18-29 year olds have a 10x risk of death from COVID and a 6x risk of hospitalization when compared to those aged 5-17.
2. You have completely ignored other risk factors and motivations. For example, there are millions of people globally suffering from long-COVID months and months after they were first infected. Studies are just now providing us with demographical data for how likely someone is to be a COVID long-hauler. The data shows at least 5% of individuals aged 20-30 experience long-COVID. Meaning: symptoms and deficits caused by COVID lasting longer than 28 days. In a significant number of cases, the individual infected has still not recovered 60, 90, 120, or even 180 days later. Amazingly, there's even a good sized group of people aged 20-30 who were asymptomatic in the acute phase yet later developed long-COVID.
3. maroonedinhsv already laid out the math for how higher overall vaccination rates sharply decrease the risk of any one individual being infected with COVID. This is the crux of how herd immunity functions. Vaccination is imperfect. Some people's bodies don't have the correct immune response or struggle to create antibodies. More importantly, however, are those who cannot be vaccinated because of other illnesses or conditions. Certain people with cancer, immune dysfunction, chemical sensitivities, and other specific contraindications cannot be vaccinated. The only thing that can truly protect them long-term is here immunity. Let me also add that there's evidence that the elderly's weaker immune systems don't provide as robust of a response to COVID post-vax as those under 65. Accordingly, every increase in our overall vaccinated population protects them further.
So, let me conclude with the reasons someone under 30 might want to be vaccinated.
A. Their risk of death and hospitalization is not zero as you claim. It's certainly higher than any risk posed by the vaccine.
B. A statistically significant number of people under the age of 30 develop chronic illness or have long-term symptoms and conditions due to COVID. Why would anyone want to risk having their lungs, heart, brain, etc permanently damaged by COVID when they can just get the vaccine?
C. This country used to believe in shared sacrifice. Sadly, many people have forsaken our classical Jude-Christian beliefs for selfish attitudes and self-centered behaviors. It seems a lot of people have forgotten why Jesus died on the cross and what it is supposed to represent. He took all that punishment for mankind, so it's baffling to me to see people ignore Jesus' direction to sacrifice for your fellow man and the greater good and to help the poor, the sick, and the infirm. There's numerous strong moral reasons why everyone eligible should get the vaccine. This country's downfall will be its abandonment of values such as serving others, shared sacrifice, and doing things for the good of the community. Now it is all about me me me.
Become an organ donor. Give blood. Volunteer to serve in your church and community. Donate to charity. Help your fellow man. Getting vaccinated is part of that same value set. The logic behind vaccination, its function, and the moral imperative behind it haven't changed one iota since public vaccination programs began over 200 years ago with smallpox.
We have eradicated or sharply mitigated significant numbers of preventable communicable diseases in this country. Eroding or destroying that success, due to selfishness and/or political partisanship, is an indescribable evil. China and Russia cannot believe their stupendously good luck (while they vaccinate their entire populations). Their information operations to make Americans doubt the benefits of vaccination is paying off.
Evan
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How do you know they're real people and that their stories aren't fake?
What methods did you use to authenticate their identities and verify their stories?
maroonedinhsv
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Everything on the internet is true (unless it doesn't support my view - then it's obviously fake).
Evan
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I think your criticism is somewhat valid but your issue with reporting standards really comes from two different systems doing two different things. VAERS is meant to capture any adverse event that occurs after a vaccination is given.
Here's a good thread from a Conservative doctor on how VAERS functions and why that is:
In contrast, COVID death reporting is much more complex system. Death certificates filled out by doctors are a primary source but so are coroner/ME death certificates for people who die outside of a medical facility or experienced an unexplained death. Adding to that, local and state health departments play a role by reporting into NNDSS. The CDC actually maintains "two sets of books" so to speak but only one is official. The other set is meant to more rapidly spot trends and be more up-to-date.
How are COVID-19 deaths counted? It’s complicated
As the U.S. death toll nears a half-million, confusion continues over whether people die “of” COVID-19 or “with” COVID-19. Here’s what’s behind the numbers.
www.aamc.org
I definitely don't think arguments that COVID deaths are being over-counted are convincing primarily because of how scant testing was for a significant period of time and the fact that so many people die at home and coroners/MEs vary on how they test for COVID in those cases. If anything, I think a strong argument can be made that coroner/ME reporting in most areas has undercounted deaths especially during localized COVID surges.
Additionally, I think doctors really do try very hard to accurately report the cause of death of any patient they're responsible for. Unless you believe the various conspiracies about doctors and hospitals being incentivized to bump up COVID deaths, I think any argument about the accuracy of death certificates coming out of healthcare facilities has to acknowledge there's likely been both over-counting and under-counting simply because doctors are humans, COVID is a novel disease, and healthcare facilities have struggled with being overwhelmed by patients, a lack of testing, and overworked which has surely led to errors. Ultimately, I would think think any variance is largely balanced out.
I understand skepticism toward the CDC given many of their recent policy decisions but keep in mind that the scientists who collect and analyze data surrounding COVID. deaths are completely seperate personnel. There's been no substantial change in death reporting or excess death analysis between the Trump admin and the Biden admin although on the policy side we've seen major changes. I know of no reputable public health official or epidemiologist who has claimed that the death reporting system is getting it wrong. Some of those people are true data geeks and if they found a flaw you can bet they'd shout it from the rooftops.
I don't think there's any serious reason to doubt the number of reported deaths, and as the AAMC article lays out there's constant refinement and analysis to try to get to the most accurate number possible.
VAERS is meant to collect every adverse event or death that can possibly be collected and then each event is carefully analyzed. I think a similar level of scrutiny is being applied to the data collected and analyzed by VAERS and COVID death reporting even though they obviously have substantial variance in how they function and how the system are designed.