Significant Tornado Events

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

The guy who wrote ExtremePlanet articles in one of them said why Waco wasn’t an F5. Also I’ve never heard of Waco throwing cars up to a half-mile?

Alright, I found the thing about Waco. It's mentioned here by Shawn of stormstalker in response to a comment of mine: https://stormstalker.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/flint-worcester-outbreak/#comment-235

The quote "I don’t think anything in the city itself really suggests F5, but homes just outside of the city were obliterated and vehicles were thrown impressive distances"
My bad, hundreds of yards instead of half a mile. Although I suppose half a mile is hundreds of yards. Anyways, this is what I thought was the PDF file, again, my bad.

Also, I found the Extreme Planet article: https://extremeplanet.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/violent-tornadoes-that-have-struck-downtown-areas/

Key quote: "The low concentration of fatalities in the residential sections of the city, coupled with the survival of most of the city’s large buildings, indicates the storm was likely under F5 intensity in the areas documented by local media."

Perhaps if it hit F5 intensity it was in poorly-documented areas. That said, retroactive ratings from back then are incredibly inconsistent as we all now, so who knows what the reasoning was?

Hopefully I managed to wrap up this discussion.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

The guy who wrote ExtremePlanet articles in one of them said why Waco wasn’t an F5. Also I’ve never heard of Waco throwing cars up to a half-mile?

While I'm at it I want to also clear up the Niles/Wheatland and Moshannon State Forest tree debarking debate that happened a bit back where I was clearly in error. I've looked through the photos of the forest damage and I do indeed see many debarked trees on the ground, I was skimming several articles at once (on other sites as well as this one) and this likely impaired by visual judgment temporarily.
So, the reason I said that tornadoes that occur in the region of the country Niles/Wheatland did don't debark trees typically was due to a discussion a few pages back in the thread. It involved color Brandenburg damage photographs and I observed that as violent as the damage was there wasn't a whole lot of debarking of trees and user pohnpei made the observation that "Violent tornados around this area(OH Valley) didn't debark a lot." I may have taken the quote as saying that tornadoes that occur in the Ohio River valley (what I assume pohnpei means by "OH Valley") don't debark as a general rule, but he may have meant something different. It does seem like quite a few tornadoes that have occurred in the area Niles/Wheatland did (which is in the Ohio River Valley) don't debark trees or vegetation all that much. As for the Moshannon State Forest tornado, I think it's location was much more remote and not in the OH Valley area, or the outer fringes of it, and it may have encountered different tree species then Niles/Wheatland did and that were more prone to debarking.

Hopefully this also clears something up and hopefully I don't inadvertently quote anyone (or myself, lol) out of context.

Link to the discussion below. It starts with my quote and just keep reading through until the discussion involving trees is over.

Significant Tornado Events

If I had to guess the 2-million pound oil derrick that was rolled by El Reno 2011 EF5. It wasn't picked up and thrown, just slid and rolled. Extremely impressive nonetheless. For heaviest airborne objects I know that Pampa, TX 1995 picked up a 35,000 lathe and threw it about 60 feet or so and it...

talkweather.com

 

[andyhb]

Re: the list of E/F5 tornadoes above.

Fargo produced some extreme damage and was well deserving of its F5 rating.

 

[buckeye05]

The damage photos I've seen of Fargo that I've seen show intense, but not all that remarkable damage. With that said, there very well might be more info/photos out there that I'm not aware of.

 

[buckeye05]

Re: Fargo

I guess it's the construction that left my memory of Fargo as unimpressive (block foundations), but the more I look, the more I can't deny that there was some pretty intense debris granulation, and some properties do look to have been swept 100% clean of debris.

 

[A Guy]

Always weird to see how some of these older F5s got their ratings. On May 19, 1960, a nasty supercell produced a bunch of strong-violent tornadoes in quick succession in northeastern Kansas, near Topeka. One of those tornadoes was rated F5, with Grazulis specifically tying the rating to two farms: one near Wamego and one near St. Marys. Could've sworn I had photos from the Wamego area, but I can't find them now. I do have some photos of the F5-rated farm near St. Marys, though. It's.. an interesting rating, considering some of the other tornadoes that haven't been rated F5.

While Grazulis rates it F5 that one's officially F4 isn't? He might have gotten one wrong there.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

While Grazulis rates it F5 that one's officially F4 isn't? He might have gotten one wrong there.

Yeah, Grazulis is normally better and more consistent with his ratings then lots of weather bureaus are of past tornadoes but you're bound to make some mistakes when compiling information on 10,000+ tornadoes.
He also rates Waco an F5, when the majority of damage photos suggest no stronger than F3.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

View attachment 7381
I just wanted to say this as well, But Hackleburg and Smithville produced the worst damage to a slab i’ve seen from any EF5 tornado. So anyway, if you look at the damaged part of the foundation, which had a lot of things done to it, You’ll see a bunch broken concrete laying around. it’s way to small to be the foundation part and it looks very similar to the broken cinder blocks from smithville, also if you look at the 3 main cinder blocks that are standing at center left, the left most one is chipped. And if you also look around the slab, barely any cinder blocks are seen. I don’t know if this is in fact cinder blocks, but if it isn’t. feel free to tell me! Juliett what do you think?

This was the diner/restaurant in/near Mount Hope. I think what happened here is the walls, masonry, etc. were ripped away so violently chunks of the foundation and cinder blocks got pulled with it. A similar thing happened with Rainsville.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I'm convinced that the the use of 'FU' on Wikipedia for unknown is someone's practical joke. Not least because it used to be 'F?'

EFU is an official term on the EF scale, FU may or may not have been a term on the old Fujita scale. But not sure. But yeah, an FU rating is something I totally dig. Lol.

 

[A Guy]

Re: Fargo

I guess it's the construction that left my memory of Fargo as unimpressive (block foundations), but the more I look, the more I can't deny that there was some pretty intense debris granulation, and some properties do look to have been swept 100% clean of debris.

Fargo was very slow moving which would account for the completeness of the destruction and brings up the chestnut of how much should forward speed be factored into ratings. It's one of those cases where the destruction is impressive even when you note the relative frailty of the construction.

Yeah, Grazulis is normally better and more consistent with his ratings then lots of weather bureaus are of past tornadoes but you're bound to make some mistakes when compiling information on 10,000+ tornadoes.

Yeah, his ratings are vastly more consistent. While it's pretty much bottom priority, I do find it amazing that at least some of the past ratings haven't been revised. Considering that they were done there wasn't a fraction of the accumulated knowledge we now have I'm surprised that no-one notable has pushed for corrections, especially when there are changes like Tanner 2 becoming F5 when it never was in the contemporary literature.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Fargo was very slow moving which would account for the completeness of the destruction and brings up the chestnut of how much should forward speed be factored into ratings. It's one of those cases where the destruction is impressive even when you note the relative frailty of the construction.


Yeah, his ratings are vastly more consistent. While it's pretty much bottom priority, I do find it amazing that at least some of the past ratings haven't been revised. Considering that they were done there wasn't a fraction of the accumulated knowledge we now have I'm surprised that no-one notable has pushed for corrections, especially when there are changes like Tanner 2 becoming F5 when it never was in the contemporary literature.

Do you know what led to Tanner 2 becoming F5? It's surprisingly hard to find information on many of the northern Alabama tornadoes of 4/3/74.

 

[A Guy]

Do you know what led to Tanner 2 becoming F5? It's surprisingly hard to find information on many of the northern Alabama tornadoes of 4/3/74.

No idea, so far as can see it was just changed in the database. I'm probably one of the worst here to ask that to lol, a lot of what I've learned is from members here and the old version of this forum, and lots of scientific papers that tend to miss out the history aspect.

It's bloody hard finding information on most of the Super Outbreak tornadoes. It's amazingly poorly documented compared to Palm Sunday and maybe worse even than Flint-Worcester over 20 years earlier.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

No idea, so far as can see it was just changed in the database. I'm probably one of the worst here to ask that to lol, a lot of what I've learned is from members here and the old version of this forum, and lots of scientific papers that tend to miss out the history aspect.

It's bloody hard finding information on most of the Super Outbreak tornadoes. It's amazingly poorly documented compared to Palm Sunday and maybe worse even than Flint-Worcester over 20 years earlier.

Here's a good site on 4/3/74 that went to the Wayback Machine but can still be browsed through here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120610215522/http://www.april31974.com/

Not many photographs of the Alabama tornadoes but a TON of photographs from the Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. ones. A ton of Brandenburg photos too.

Yeah NOAA finally put up damage photographs and videos from the Tanner, Jasper and Huntsville tornadoes but not much from Guin. That one is still hard to find quality information on aside from some select publications.

Some other stuff on that outbreak:

April 3, 1974: In the Path

April 3, 1974 – The Guin Tornado

I was barely a year old on April 3, 1974 when the Super Outbreak – then the largest recorded tornado outbreak in United States history – occurred. Even if I had been older, living in U…

mwenzbauer.wordpress.com

April 3-4, 1974 Tornado Outbreak

 

[CheeselandSkies]

There's a book called F5: Devastation, Survival and the Most Violent Tornado Outbreak of the 20th Century by Mark Levine. It focuses on Limestone County, AL on 4/3/74. In it he states that "First Tanner" was an F5 and "Second Tanner" was an F4, but more destructive overall in Limestone County.

 

[speedbump305]

This was the diner/restaurant in/near Mount Hope. I think what happened here is the walls, masonry, etc. were ripped away so violently chunks of the foundation and cinder blocks got pulled with it. A similar thing happened with Rainsville.

So do you think it’s possible that Hackleburg, Rainsville, And Smithville all did damage to cinder blocks?

 

[speedbump305]

El Reno is undisputedly one of the most violent tornadoes ever recorded in history and is up there with Hackleburg, Philadelphia, and Smithville

Yep i agree. To be honest, Hackleburg, Smithville, and El Reno all pretty much did damage on another level very rare from other EF5s

 

[speedbump305]

Yep i agree. To be honest, Hackleburg, Smithville, and El Reno all pretty much did damage on another level very rare from other EF5s

So for Smithville there are some things it did do that were on another level for EF5s, but we need to ignore everything else Smithville did and focus on the things it did that were just absolutely ridiculous

1: The Uprooted Water Pipe
2: Granulated Brick
3: Cinder Blocks being broken
4: The Insane tree damage near the funeral home.

in my
opinion these damage indicators show just how violent smithville was, but Hackleburg also did something’s that were absolutely ridiculous as well and are also on another level for EF5s

1: Concrete roof torn off a storm shelter
2: Poured concrete being torn from the ground
3: Stem walls being sheared. This is an incredible feat of strength and i’ve only seen it happen in Hackleburg
4: Possibly cinder blocks being broken apart as well

This is what i think Hackleburg and Smithville did that were on another level. We have all heard storm shelters or safe rooms having doors being ripped off, but Hackleburg has been the only tornado i know to break off a concrete roof of a storm shelter

I know Bakersfield scoured a tiny bit of concrete ditch, but not to the level of Hackleburg or Jarrell

Sorry if y’all don’t agree, but in my opinion these damage indicators really show how incredibly powerful Phil Campbell and Smithville really were. And yes jarrell did scour a concrete shed foundation. But anyways, there’s one more thing i want to say about Smithville

I really wanna rank smithville and hackleburg the way i want too, but the thing is, i haven’t seen any asphalt scouring or pavement scouring in Smithville. i’ve seen tar and chip being torn, but not pavement. have y’all seen pavement scoured in smithville? Anyways sorry if y’all don’t agree with the things hackleburg and smithville did that was on another level

 

[locomusic01]

Yeah NOAA finally put up damage photographs and videos from the Tanner, Jasper and Huntsville tornadoes but not much from Guin. That one is still hard to find quality information on aside from some select publications.

Haven't had time to catch up on the thread yet, but I did see this. The best place to start would probably be reaching out to the Marion County Historical Society and some of the local libraries in the area. Maybe local newspapers and TV stations as well. Maybe someone's already done that and come up empty, I dunno, but you'd be surprised how far you can get with a few emails/phone calls sometimes.

Speaking of which, I think I've managed to track down some photos from the 1920 Palm Sunday outbreak that I saw somewhere years ago and have never been able to find again. From what I remember, they showed some pretty remarkable damage that led me to believe one of the F4 tornadoes was clearly underrated. Hoping to have something to share soon.

 

[speedbump305]

Haven't had time to catch up on the thread yet, but I did see this. The best place to start would probably be reaching out to the Marion County Historical Society and some of the local libraries in the area. Maybe local newspapers and TV stations as well. Maybe someone's already done that and come up empty, I dunno, but you'd be surprised how far you can get with a few emails/phone calls sometimes.

Speaking of which, I think I've managed to track down some photos from the 1920 Palm Sunday outbreak that I saw somewhere years ago and have never been able to find again. From what I remember, they showed some pretty remarkable damage that led me to believe one of the F4 tornadoes was clearly underrated. Hoping to have something to share soon.

We would love to see images of that outbreak!

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Haven't had time to catch up on the thread yet, but I did see this. The best place to start would probably be reaching out to the Marion County Historical Society and some of the local libraries in the area. Maybe local newspapers and TV stations as well. Maybe someone's already done that and come up empty, I dunno, but you'd be surprised how far you can get with a few emails/phone calls sometimes.

Speaking of which, I think I've managed to track down some photos from the 1920 Palm Sunday outbreak that I saw somewhere years ago and have never been able to find again. From what I remember, they showed some pretty remarkable damage that led me to believe one of the F4 tornadoes was clearly underrated. Hoping to have something to share soon.

Is it the Townley IN F4 because it reportedly swept away homes and tore machinery from anchoring.