TH2002
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Significant Tornado Events
- Thread starter locomusic01
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SweptSlab5
Member
Rochelle has always been on my list of should have been Ef5, and with this new information it solidifies it even further. It’s up there with vilonia, goldsby, Chickasaw, and more controversly, rolling fork and Tuscaloosa. I really believe that the damage at the flower shop in rolling fork should have been relooked at, and that the tossing of train cars in Tuscaloosa should also be checked out.
SweptSlab5
Member
Also, does anyone have ANY info on grazulis 2001 book F5-F6 tornadoes? It’s like a ghost book, it has no other information about it besides a date of publication and an author. I can’t even find a cover image! Worldcat has 1 library entry, in Hutchinson Kansas, over 1000 miles from me.
TH2002
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It's not just the railcars with Tuscaloosa, one of the main damage points that has been brought up in recent years is the railroad bridge over Hurricane Creek, where one of the trestles was thrown 100 ft. up a hill.
@Equus actually shared his copy a while back:
Juliett Bravo Kilo
Member
It was a pamphlet that came with VHS copies of his TORNADO VIDEO CLASSICS series back in the day, someone shared a PDF of it here awhile back...
GrenadinesDes
Member
Topeka 1966 produced the most extreme damage to an academic institution building ever documented in my opinion. The Rice Hall was a three story, stone masonry university building, with 0.5m thick walls. The third story walls were demolished, almost the entirety of the 2nd level walls were demolished, and the first level was severely damaged. At first, I thought Topeka was your average suburban slider home slabber, but this feat of damage makes me believe Topeka was the strongest tornado of the 1960s and arguably one of the strongest tornadoes documented. Credits to @HAwkmoon for the photos and introducing me to this damage
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TH2002
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Challenge to everyone on this forum: say "suburban slider home slabber" three times fast.Topeka 1966 produced the most extreme damage to an academic institution building ever documented in my opinion. The Rice Hall was a three story, stone masonry university building, with 0.5m thick walls. The third story walls were demolished, almost the entirety of the 2nd level walls were demolished, and the first level was severely damaged. At first, I thought Topeka was your average suburban slider home slabber, but this feat of damage makes me believe Topeka was the strongest tornado of the 1960s and arguably one of the strongest tornadoes documented. Credits to @HAwkmoon for the photos and introducing me to this damage
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All jokes aside, I actually agree with you here. The damage Topeka 1966 caused at Rice Hall gets overlooked. If I'm not mistaken, a 300lb chunk of stone from that building was also hurled a full two miles, which is incredible.
I’m going to be direct. How can we rule out EF5 in Rochelle without ruling out perhaps the best EF5 candidate in the Deer Creek Subdivision, 4807 Richard Drive? I was under the impression that Nick and Saltical analyzed this home as well, but it doesn’t seem like they did. Most importantly, TH dug up info showing it was built by a different construction company than the one that screwed up anchor bolt installation at the others. So, I have to ask, has anyone done analysis, or actually have specifics on that home?
I’m sorry to dig this back up after calling it case closed, but I’m realizing we can’t put this to bed without doing full due diligence, especially given what TH found. If there’s evidence of significant structural flaws at 4807 Richard, we can fully close the book on Rochelle. But until that’s determined, we can’t.
I’m sorry to dig this back up after calling it case closed, but I’m realizing we can’t put this to bed without doing full due diligence, especially given what TH found. If there’s evidence of significant structural flaws at 4807 Richard, we can fully close the book on Rochelle. But until that’s determined, we can’t.
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Also, a question for @HAwkmoon, or anyone well-versed in brick/masonry construction for that matter.
What is your take on the First Presbyterian Church in Mayfield? This building had large thick walls, and sustained some of the most impressive and thorough destruction of a masonry building I have seen in modern times. Now one issue is that there appears to be pretty bad corrosion of the base plates within the newer portion of the building. For what it’s worth, Tim Marshall rated this church low-end EF4.
(also yes I know the second photo is from mid-demolition, but I included it to illustrate the thickness of the walls)
What is your take on the First Presbyterian Church in Mayfield? This building had large thick walls, and sustained some of the most impressive and thorough destruction of a masonry building I have seen in modern times. Now one issue is that there appears to be pretty bad corrosion of the base plates within the newer portion of the building. For what it’s worth, Tim Marshall rated this church low-end EF4.
(also yes I know the second photo is from mid-demolition, but I included it to illustrate the thickness of the walls)
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TH2002
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While it's on my mind... might as well post some more stuff from Rochelle-Fairdale. Starting with whatever this mangled mess is:
Some stunning photos from Fairdale, including one taken only hours after the tornado's passage, and a panorama:
Violent contextual damage, including scouring and debarking. Considering many trees in Illinois are of a particularly durable species of hardwood, this is rather impressive:
Finally, an aerial of Fairdale. No damage point here was officially rated above high-end EF3, but I'd like to find better photos of the home in the bottom left corner (it's not on the DAT). Maybe a candidate for EF4.
Some stunning photos from Fairdale, including one taken only hours after the tornado's passage, and a panorama:
Violent contextual damage, including scouring and debarking. Considering many trees in Illinois are of a particularly durable species of hardwood, this is rather impressive:
Finally, an aerial of Fairdale. No damage point here was officially rated above high-end EF3, but I'd like to find better photos of the home in the bottom left corner (it's not on the DAT). Maybe a candidate for EF4.
A few things to note here, Tim Marshal actually did not give this an official rating, you may be referring to the 170 mph statement in his damage report. This was not supposed to be referring to the church, rather for a future di. (Which the dod and damage windspeed for all walls collapsed has changed). As far as how I would rate it, I did a deep analysis into its construction using information from Tim Marshal and structural details: here is a copy of what I wrote roughly.
The Presbyterian Church in Mayfield consisted of three buildings, one being a metal building system on the west side. The original sanctuary structure was on the southern side and north of that was a 2 story masonry bearing building housing offices and classrooms. The EF5 damage happened to the original sanctuary. The sanctuary itself was built some time between 1916-1920. It was a 1 and 2 story brick structure with a basement beneath. The building was in very good condition especially compared to the older downtown buildings, the bricks were properly fired and very hard, and the cement mortar was also in good condition bonding the courses of masonry together. The walls were four wythes thick (16 inches), of classic unreinforced traditional masonry, the outer wythe was a typical running common bond that was bonded to the backing wythes forming a strong collar joint. Six large buttresses on either side of the east and west load bearing walls provided significant lateral reinforcement and stiffness. The basement level was divided from the superstructure of the building by a large concrete bond beam, windows were arched. The roof structure was a steel a-frame design of steel roof trusses that were bolted into anchor plates embedded within the mortar joints of the masonry walls. The bonding generally was good. Though obviously an english bond is strongest the four wythes of the walls are extremely heavy and resistant to the windforces with the buttresses and roof trusses. Also of note is that wall top plates were well anchored into masonry mortar joints with long anchor bolts, and joists were also well anchored which is not something u often see in older construction which is neat. The church sanctuary suffered complete destruction down to the concrete bond beam, on the CEF scale for C-HC, this would warrant EF5, on the IF scale, this would be Sturdiness E-F, for total destruction also IF5, on the revision for CARB, this would also be EF5. Not only does this 100% deserve EF5, it is a much higher damage indicator than most of the actual EF5s.
The corrosion of the baseplates is for the MBS which would be rated as a separate building.
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SweptSlab5
Member
Thank you so, so much! I have been looking for this forever and it’s so interesting to see!
Lake Martin EF4
Member
Can you provide an aerial of the Church pre-tornado? I'm not sure if the situation is that all three sections are separate buildings or if the situation is that they're all sections of the same building. EF5 candidacy hinges on that IMO.
They are all different separate buildings that were constructed at different times and then interconnected. However they act independently. I have the original sanborn plan for the Sanctuary building here.
Here is an aerial and one with my annotations but I do suck at drawing sadly...
Sanctuary is in red, it was connected to the north wing which was added later, they are still separate buildings and so is the MBS. That is why they are to be rated separately. The MBS I would rate EF3 as was given, the northern building EF4, and the sanctuary is the EF5 structure.
Lake Martin EF4
Member
Hmmm...
@TH2002, @buckeye05, what do we think of this here? Three separate structures constructed individually and then connected after the fact, one of which if taken on its own would quite possibly be a home run EF5 DI.
Grand Poo Bah
Member
Incredible analysis @HAwkmoon . Really great work.
The destruction of concrete/masonry buildings in downtown Mayfield was nothing short of extraordinary.
Has the damage at First Christian Church been examined this in depth? It looks like the walls were two feet thick in some spots.
Some other buildings in the area
First United Methodist Church
Mayfield Courthouse
Most of the historic buildings downtown had 12-16 inch thick masonry walls
Carr's Steakhouse
Debi's Tax Service
16 inch thick walls ^
The destruction of concrete/masonry buildings in downtown Mayfield was nothing short of extraordinary.
Has the damage at First Christian Church been examined this in depth? It looks like the walls were two feet thick in some spots.
Some other buildings in the area
First United Methodist Church
Mayfield Courthouse
Most of the historic buildings downtown had 12-16 inch thick masonry walls
Carr's Steakhouse
Debi's Tax Service
16 inch thick walls ^
Western_KS_Wx
Member
Where did you find the plan for the building at? Very interesting stuff and awesome work altogether, you make a solid argument. I always have been impressed by that particular DI, but didn’t really consider it for an EF5 candidate until now.
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Juliett Bravo Kilo
Member
It has been brought up in this thread before that the 2011 Tuscaloosa tornado likely reached EF5 intensity in the rural areas between Tuscaloosa and Birmingham, and one of the sites along the path that most interests me is the coalyard in the western suburbs of Birmingham where two rail cars were hurled from the tracks.
I found a research article that focuses on the damage that occurred there, with a couple diagrams showing the direction the empty coal cars were displaced. The railcars, which weighed about 35-36 tons (70,000-72,000 lbs) each, were displaced 60 m (about 196 feet) and 120 m (just shy of 400 feet), respectively.
It was of the author's opinion that the cars were more probably rolled rather than tossed, but I don't agree with this assessment - survivor accounts stated the railcars were carried through the air in a single toss, and we can also look at another tornado for comparison. The April 9, 2011 Pocahontas, IA EF4 destroyed a farmstead and rolled/bounced a combine several hundred feet in the process. Note the impact marks along the combine's track where it made ground contact several times during the tornado; similar impact marks are not to be seen in the Tuscaloosa railyard.
In all fairness, the author of the article didn't completely dismiss the idea that the railcars were tossed, either.
The article also includes a calculation which ascertains mid to high end EF3 winds may been enough to toss the railcars, though this seems very iffy to me as well - to be fair again, they do include a disclaimer that this is only a very rough estimate. I'm not sure if other engineers have weighed in on what kind of winds may have been necessary to toss the railcars.
Earlier along the path in the Holt-Peterson area northeast of Tuscaloosa the tornado destroyed a rail bridge, hurling a 37-ton (74,000 lb) truss 100 feet up a hill. I have heard that engineers (not sure who) ran a calculation on that bridge, and determined winds exceeding 200 mph would have been necessary for the tornado to destroy the bridge in that fashion.
Perhaps most interesting is the question mark in the first diagram, where it is speculated a third railcar may have been hurled by the tornado, possibly deposited in a deep ravine nearby or simply thrown far enough to never be seen again. However, according to NWS BMX no railcars were reported missing after the storm's passage, and it's likely there was simply no railcar in that spot to begin with.
Oh, and by the way, the paper analyzing the damage at the railyard can be found here - while I don't necessarily agree with everything it presents, it's still an interesting read.
Interesting to read all this stuff given how Enderlin was rated EF5 solely for the train car damage; based on that logic Tuscaloosa should've been rated EF5 based on this damage alone.
speedbump305
Member
You know, it’s not unreasonable after looking at these damage photos and realizing that it’s very likely the tornado may have reached EF5 intensity in the downtown square. That destruction to well built concrete/masonry buildings is nothing short of incredible and heartbreaking.
I have sanborn maps for all of Mayfield, I have browsed but the church was the only one that I consider for EF5 as the condition of many of these downtown structures was very poor and they were in a weakened state. In their hayday they definitely would be in consideration. The other churches were partially destroyed, and a lot of the downtown buildings still had large portions left standing, (some were totally levelled like the steakhouse which I consider EF4). That being said, I have not conducted a thorough building by building analysis like with the church, so I have not concluded refined ratings for each building.