tornado examiner
Member
They’re basically all in the same category of, “if F/EF6 was a thing, these would be them.”
-
Welcome to TalkWeather! We see you lurking around TalkWeather! Take the extra step and join us today to view attachments, see less ads and maybe even join the discussion. CLICK TO JOIN TALKWEATHER
Re: Enderlin lofting the tanker car
Roger Edwards is digging his heels in on this one. I don’t think he’s disputing the rating in general, but it’s kind of a weird stand to take when this tornado legitimately had a panel of experts reviewing it. Especially almost 4 months after the fact.
Roger Edwards is digging his heels in on this one. I don’t think he’s disputing the rating in general, but it’s kind of a weird stand to take when this tornado legitimately had a panel of experts reviewing it. Especially almost 4 months after the fact.
tornado examiner
Member
The tornado definitely lofted the tanker car to some degree. It's pretty much a fact.
Him taking a contrarian stance based on flimsy evidence is really weird.
There is a severe lack of imprints in the finally leg of the tanker cars journey into the field. But clear marks for around the first 2 thirds of it that suggests it got flipped end over end before becoming fully airborne and then being dropped into the field.
The “roll marks” he points out are not nearly deep or noticeable enough to be verifiable as roll marks when considering how heavy that tanker is. Nor do they match up with the geometry of the tanker. And there’s till marks that line up with them elsewhere in the photo.
Nor are there any mud prints visible on the tanker car anywhere.
The panel of experts concluded correctly that the tanker went airborne in a major way.
Last edited:
The timing is just odd. If you’ve ever read anything by Edwards outside of his outlooks, he’s a very opinionated and outspoken person. That’s not a bad thing, so the tweets aren’t surprising. However, these train car images have been available since the tornado happened. Multiple people across the wx community spectrum pointed out it looked like the car was lofted. I don’t have twitter, so did he dispute it back in June?
tornado examiner
Member
It's well known that throughout history even really smart evidence driven people can have some of the stupidest hill’s to die on.
AJS
Member
Yeah lol. That was a silly assertion. I do believe the Robinson, IL tornado was undoubtedly a very violent tornado though. The contextual damage was pretty high end throughout the southern fringes of Robinson.
Lake Martin EF4
Member
LOL really? I mean, I don't think Smithville was the ABSOLUTE cream of the crop (I consider Greensburg, Parkersburg and Matador among others stronger) but freaking ROBINSON? LMAO
Lake Martin EF4
Member
Also a study from 2017 stating that Great Smoky and a Georgia EF3 from the 2011 Super Outbreak caused EF5 forest damage:
AJS
Member
If you don’t mind me asking, what is your reasoning for Greensburg being above Smithville? Parkersburg I can see, but not sure about Greensburg. I’d love to see why though! No offense btw to you’re opinion, just curious to see why!
Lake Martin EF4
Member
Greensburg IIRC ANNIHILATED a semi truck and threw heavy tanks upwards of 7 goddamn miles, and that's just in a straight line so they were likely in the air for longer. Among others. And apparently, that wasn't even at peak!
@Western_KS_Wx has more info - he's been working on a Greensburg article for like two or three years lmao
Shakespeare 2016
Member
There was another tornado from that night that swept away a well-built home and threw a vehicle for over a mile and it was left completely unrecognizable. It may have been the Macksville tormado.
Edit...The Trousdale tornado from that night may have also been similar in intensity to the Greensburg tornado.
Last edited:
AJS
Member
Jeez louise. Man, that supercell was just absolutely insane. Wouldn’t be surprised if almost all of the other tornadoes were capable of producing EF5 damage at some point.
Some have speculated that the Trousdale tornado may have been even stronger than the Greensburg one, there just wasn't anything substantial for it to hit to get a better gauge on the strength of it.
tornado examiner
Member
In the grand scheme of things it does seem to be a moot point. I believe @slenker pointed it out originally, but wasn't the tipping of the fully loaded boxcars more impressive in terms of wind speed vs the tanker car?
tornado examiner
Member
Especially the two that were completely flipped over. As in a full 270 degree rotation. To where the top of it is facing the tracks rather than away from it.
Those boxy 230,000 pound things being rolled like that. Yeah.
tornado examiner
Member
It may have rolled with that image but the final stretch indicates lofting still. It's buried in the ground and there’s no marks for a few dozen meters up to its final resting place.
I didn't explicitly state this, I believe another user did. I'm pretty sure the lofting feat technically requires higher windspeeds (that's the >266 MPH calc), but the tipping of the full cars still requires >230 MPH winds to accomplish. AKA, it's an EF5 regardless, and the only thing that this rolling may end up changing is the NWS's unofficial >266 MPH estimate for the winds.
I suppose I find it particularly hard to believe that the train was rolled when we can clearly see the drag marks that the other cars impacted the landscape with. If it was really rolled, there would be large dents in the surface that indicate it was making multiple impacts with the ground. That isn't there, there's no drag marks from wheels either, and due to the geometry of this thing I feel like a "smooth roll" is simply not possible. I'm guessing they also checked the car to see if there was caked up mud on it from rolling - seems like a natural thing to look for. I suppose that's something I'd like to see confirmation on but I haven't seen close up imagery of the thrown train car.
EDIT: There seems to be some impact marks actually, didn't look into the tweet until now. Interesting. I still believe the final stretch indicates lofting though.
tornado examiner
Member
And the bare minimum for rolling the tanker off the tracks is over 200mph. That doesn’t account for just how far it went.
One thing I notice about this is that while there are impact marks, we can see that A) the wheels were ripped off relatively quickly, and B) it's spaced and sporadic in an odd way. This indicates that while it may not have had a clean throw/toss where the object didn't hit the ground at all, it likely went airborne multiple times, AKA it was still lofted, maybe multiple times, and wasn't thrown super far per toss, just enough to hit the ground and be lofted again potentially. It could have rolled to its final resting place, maybe, but I really don't think it did. If that were the case, the marking in the landscape would be far more intense, especially on saturated soil. Again, look at the wheel markings the heavier cars left behind. I understand that they were heavier by a long shot, but a 72000 lb car is still almost certainly going to leave marks as well if it's forcefully dragged through a muddy field. I feel like we need some stronger evidence that it was rolled, because the lofting case still has strong merit for it, certainly moreso in my eyes than the rolling case.