Significant Tornado Events

[Shelby]

There have been many conversations in the past about this specific example of gouge scouring, I believe we were talking about this versus Philadelphia 2011 and other examples of it. I’m of the opinion that this scouring from the Western Kentucky storm isn’t actually as impressive as regular grass scouring, Philadelphia/Smithville, or the scouring from later in this same storm’s path. I can list the reasons if you’d like me to

I would love to hear the reasons. I agree though that KY was not as impressive compared to Smithville or Philadelphia. How would you compare Jarrell to Smithville/Philadelphia?

 

[slenker]

I would love to hear the reasons. I agree though that KY was not as impressive compared to Smithville or Philadelphia. How would you compare Jarrell to Smithville/Philadelphia?

I’m no expert by any means but I’ve heard this from external sources more qualified than me, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The reasoning behind why the sort of gouge scouring shown in the video above isn’t as impressive as some other examples of it, to start, is because of the isolated nature of it alongside the fact that it’s shaped the way it is. The scouring there is in the shape of an “eye” - that it was more likely caused from the fact that it was simply a weaker layer of soil being lifted off the ground, like a peeling sheet. It isn’t a streak, it’s a mat of soil, and it follows the motion of the vortex pretty weakly. Compared to gouge scouring like that saw in Philadelphia or Smithville, it isn’t a trench that is following the motion of the vortex, which to me points to the sheer strength of it drilling into the ground. That’s what Philadelphia and Smithville were. The trenches they formed were up to hundreds of yards long and more than a foot deep, and coincided with clear EF5 damage or EF5 level contextuals. This example did not do such a thing (although the tornado may still have been at HE EF4 level or even EF5 level here regardless, it’s definitely more nebulous though). I’m of the opinion that Western Kentucky was no doubt an EF5 level tornado, but the reasons I have for it being one don’t involve the trenches it dug here.

Also, I’m unsure about the quality of the soil in the area it did this. There’s (supposedly) been research done on the soil in the south to verify if Philadelphia’s trench scouring was EF5 level - it’s a very strong clay that was used in cattle pasture and was particularly resistant to outside stresses, from what I have heard. @Sawmaster is someone who is much more qualified than me to discuss/talk about this. At the very least, it’s pretty much been confirmed that even if the soil isn’t as strong as we think, it still takes a baseline EF5 to do what it did, although I’m leaning towards a higher end EF5 being required to dig the monster trench it did. There are some people who disagree with this notion on this forum and their opinions are valid as well, it’s just something that is particularly hard to understand without further research into the topic.

Also, I see consistent grass scouring like that seen in Chickasha 2011 or the further sections of the Western Kentucky tornado’s path (Bremen and Dawson Springs) as more impressive than the trench digging there, as that is less dependent on soil strength and is a more consistent indicator of very high end tornado strength than trench digging is. There’s supposedly been EF2 tornadoes that have dug trenches (again, probably weaker soil, and also I can’t name any off the top of my head) and trench digging practically requires extraordinary examples/evidence to point to a high end tornado, like that seen in the 2011 Super Outbreak.

And to answer your question, I believe Jarrell’s ground scouring was the most intense you will ever see. I do believe Jarrell was every bit as strong as Smithville was and moved extremely slow which not only contributed to the exaggerated nature of the damage, but also its breadth.

 

[Sawmaster]

I concur. As a virile hefty young man I could not dig into southern red clay more that an inch or so using a 6 pound pick swung with all my might. Even full-size backhoes have a tough time with it. Someone once mentioned that this could easily separate in layers but I disagree in this case. If you look closely at the pics this soil was dug out in gobs and chunks, not layers.

And Jarrell was western hardpan soil which with that same pick I'd get at best 1/2 inch into with one swing. Hit it with a sledgehammer and it will bounce back hard. This stuff is darn near like concrete. Trenching anywhere is a strong indicator but in these two instances it rates as an incredibly strong indicator to me.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Did Marshal have anything on Trousdale, Hopewell or Macksville? I am aware that they did destroy farms, I just recall seeing once that one of those tornadoes was said to be rated EF4 on some page or something, but am blanking on the source.

That’s also a mystery lol. It’s a little bizarre, I’ve seen him say under several Facebook posts and on some sort of online article or forum that he went and surveyed “the one after Greensburg” from the same night and claimed it was every bit as powerful as Greensburg, while also telling me in one of the emails again that he surveyed “the one after Greensburg” but never really elaborated further. Then in our latest conversations he said he only surveyed Greensburg, which is a little confusing and contradicting.

As for the source, it came from a file shared with me by Mike Umscheid that was an initial surveyed damage points map from that night. Here’s the original post:
https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-103242
There were several points that were also labeled EF3+ from both Trousdale and Hopewell, seemingly indicating the surveyors believed a higher rating was either considered or thought to be necessary.

I will be honest. I was always under the impression that Greensburg had minimal EF-5 damage. I’m glad you have done the research and proved otherwise. I was at the Joplin aftermath and saw damage indicative of EF-5 all around me but I still feel that Joplin also doesn’t get the credit for just how powerful it really was. Back to Greensburg I remember watching the KAKE video on YouTube of the supercell and it was incredible to see the radar images and gait to gait shear. Seemed to be traveling almost due north as well. Do you have any other photos of the gouges in the fields?

That was pretty much the consensus among many in the weather community that it was very marginal and some questioned the rating, which is understandable because of how unusually undocumented the whole event was from a damage perspective. The tornado was traveling mostly northeastward for essentially its whole life before 1.5 miles south of town it banked left and went due north and west into town. As for the images, there’s four total and will probably be saved for the article since there’s so few of them.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Trenching anywhere is a strong indicator but in these two instances it rates as an incredibly strong indicator to me.

This is why I think scouring needs to be an indicator in the EF-scale, as in many cases it’s a very reliable indicator of a violent tornado. It’s been used as a reason to not push a rating higher, yet never seems to be used as a reason to upgrade. In certain areas where soil is particularly tough it becomes even more apparent of an indication of remarkable intensity. This topic reminded me, I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I remember somewhere it was mentioned how durable the soil was in Bridge Creek and yet the thing managed to scour the ground nearly a foot deep in some locations, which is just remarkable.

 

[Shelby]

I’m no expert by any means but I’ve heard this from external sources more qualified than me, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The reasoning behind why the sort of gouge scouring shown in the video above isn’t as impressive as some other examples of it, to start, is because of the isolated nature of it alongside the fact that it’s shaped the way it is. The scouring there is in the shape of an “eye” - that it was more likely caused from the fact that it was simply a weaker layer of soil being lifted off the ground, like a peeling sheet. It isn’t a streak, it’s a mat of soil, and it follows the motion of the vortex pretty weakly. Compared to gouge scouring like that saw in Philadelphia or Smithville, it isn’t a trench that is following the motion of the vortex, which to me points to the sheer strength of it drilling into the ground. That’s what Philadelphia and Smithville were. The trenches they formed were up to hundreds of yards long and more than a foot deep, and coincided with clear EF5 damage or EF5 level contextuals. This example did not do such a thing (although the tornado may still have been at HE EF4 level or even EF5 level here regardless, it’s definitely more nebulous though). I’m of the opinion that Western Kentucky was no doubt an EF5 level tornado, but the reasons I have for it being one don’t involve the trenches it dug here.

Also, I’m unsure about the quality of the soil in the area it did this. There’s (supposedly) been research done on the soil in the south to verify if Philadelphia’s trench scouring was EF5 level - it’s a very strong clay that was used in cattle pasture and was particularly resistant to outside stresses, from what I have heard. @Sawmaster is someone who is much more qualified than me to discuss/talk about this. At the very least, it’s pretty much been confirmed that even if the soil isn’t as strong as we think, it still takes a baseline EF5 to do what it did, although I’m leaning towards a higher end EF5 being required to dig the monster trench it did. There are some people who disagree with this notion on this forum and their opinions are valid as well, it’s just something that is particularly hard to understand without further research into the topic.

Also, I see consistent grass scouring like that seen in Chickasha 2011 or the further sections of the Western Kentucky tornado’s path (Bremen and Dawson Springs) as more impressive than the trench digging there, as that is less dependent on soil strength and is a more consistent indicator of very high end tornado strength than trench digging is. There’s supposedly been EF2 tornadoes that have dug trenches (again, probably weaker soil, and also I can’t name any off the top of my head) and trench digging practically requires extraordinary examples/evidence to point to a high end tornado, like that seen in the 2011 Super Outbreak.

And to answer your question, I believe Jarrell’s ground scouring was the most intense you will ever see. I do believe Jarrell was every bit as strong as Smithville was and moved extremely slow which not only contributed to the exaggerated nature of the damage, but also its breadth.

Thank you for sharing your insight on the subject. I’m curious now because you mention weaker soil and it does seem a large percentage of severe ground scouring tends to be over farmland. I could be wrong but I believe Philadelphia ground scouring occurred over farmland? Look at the example I showed and also Plainfield, Illinois comes to mind. The soil in these areas might not be as strong due to tilling from machines for crops etc? Heck even cows grazing in the pasture and ripping up grass from the ground. What do you think?

 

[Shelby]

This is why I think scouring needs to be an indicator in the EF-scale, as in many cases it’s a very reliable indicator of a violent tornado. It’s been used as a reason to not push a rating higher, yet never seems to be used as a reason to upgrade. In certain areas where soil is particularly tough it becomes even more apparent of an indication of remarkable intensity. This topic reminded me, I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I remember somewhere it was mentioned how durable the soil was in Bridge Creek and yet the thing managed to scour the ground nearly a foot deep in some locations, which is just remarkable

I agree that ground scouring should be an indicator for the EF-scale. The 1999 Brisge Creek tornado was one of the strongest in history in my opinion. I believe it was at full intensity over this area and agree the damage and scouring was some of the most intense ever.

 

[AJS]

I’m no expert by any means but I’ve heard this from external sources more qualified than me, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The reasoning behind why the sort of gouge scouring shown in the video above isn’t as impressive as some other examples of it, to start, is because of the isolated nature of it alongside the fact that it’s shaped the way it is. The scouring there is in the shape of an “eye” - that it was more likely caused from the fact that it was simply a weaker layer of soil being lifted off the ground, like a peeling sheet. It isn’t a streak, it’s a mat of soil, and it follows the motion of the vortex pretty weakly. Compared to gouge scouring like that saw in Philadelphia or Smithville, it isn’t a trench that is following the motion of the vortex, which to me points to the sheer strength of it drilling into the ground. That’s what Philadelphia and Smithville were. The trenches they formed were up to hundreds of yards long and more than a foot deep, and coincided with clear EF5 damage or EF5 level contextuals. This example did not do such a thing (although the tornado may still have been at HE EF4 level or even EF5 level here regardless, it’s definitely more nebulous though). I’m of the opinion that Western Kentucky was no doubt an EF5 level tornado, but the reasons I have for it being one don’t involve the trenches it dug here.

Also, I’m unsure about the quality of the soil in the area it did this. There’s (supposedly) been research done on the soil in the south to verify if Philadelphia’s trench scouring was EF5 level - it’s a very strong clay that was used in cattle pasture and was particularly resistant to outside stresses, from what I have heard. @Sawmaster is someone who is much more qualified than me to discuss/talk about this. At the very least, it’s pretty much been confirmed that even if the soil isn’t as strong as we think, it still takes a baseline EF5 to do what it did, although I’m leaning towards a higher end EF5 being required to dig the monster trench it did. There are some people who disagree with this notion on this forum and their opinions are valid as well, it’s just something that is particularly hard to understand without further research into the topic.

Also, I see consistent grass scouring like that seen in Chickasha 2011 or the further sections of the Western Kentucky tornado’s path (Bremen and Dawson Springs) as more impressive than the trench digging there, as that is less dependent on soil strength and is a more consistent indicator of very high end tornado strength than trench digging is. There’s supposedly been EF2 tornadoes that have dug trenches (again, probably weaker soil, and also I can’t name any off the top of my head) and trench digging practically requires extraordinary examples/evidence to point to a high end tornado, like that seen in the 2011 Super Outbreak.

And to answer your question, I believe Jarrell’s ground scouring was the most intense you will ever see. I do believe Jarrell was every bit as strong as Smithville was and moved extremely slow which not only contributed to the exaggerated nature of the damage, but also its breadth.

The scouring in Bremen in my opinion is overlooked. Some of that scouring was seriously intense and honestly, isn’t far fetched to say it was probably some of the most intense scouring we’ve seen since at least Chapman.

 

[Sawmaster]

Heck even cows grazing in the pasture and ripping up grass from the ground.

The grasses which grazing cattle eat are the above-ground parts. Their weight being concentrated on 4 small areas has the bigger impact in compacting the ground. Plowing or tilling does loosen soil considerably making scouring or trenching far more likely. I'm given to understand that central midwestern soil can be nearly as hard as western hardpan however I don't know the extent of where it may occur or if it is prevalent in the OKC area; someone with better local knowledge than me could answer that. I know nothing about the soil in Bremen, but the scouring was impressive.

I agree that ground scouring and trenching should be used as a DI or at least as a defined contextual indicator, yet it's not always a simple matter to define like with Philidelphia and Jarrell. Even my Southern red clay can be layered and weaker in places, and other factors like whether the earth was filled or virgin, soil dampness, intrusions of weaker soil etc can make it highly variable.

Still, in cases like we're discussing here where the soil is particularly hard IMHO does qualify it as an indication of severe strength at the highest levels.

 

[Austin Dawg]

I don't know if it helps, but when I was younger, the majority of the land on the 'beginning' where the Smithville Tornado struck was predominantly farmland. I am turning 63 this January and have deep memories of the town's history. I can tell you most of the town is flat as a pancake. I'm amazed there was that much damage there, as was reported. It had to have been catastrophic. Nothing has already been said.

Happy New Year!

 

[phant]

Hey does anybody happen to know how big Joplin and Greensburg's core was? It would be appreciated if anyone knew and could share. Thanks!

Edit: I would also appreciate the forward speeds of both tornadoes throughout the city, I currently have Greensburgs average speed of 20.3mph, and between 27.03 - 33.5mph for Joplin, but I don't know if these are accurate (especially Greensburg). So if anyone has either of these and is willing to share id like that aswell. Thanks!

 

[AJS]

Supposedly an image of the Amory EF3 from March 24, 2023.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Hey does anybody happen to know how big Joplin and Greensburg's core was? It would be appreciated if anyone knew and could share. Thanks!

Edit: I would also appreciate the forward speeds of both tornadoes throughout the city, I currently have Greensburgs average speed of 20.3mph, and between 27.03 - 33.5mph for Joplin, but I don't know if these are accurate (especially Greensburg). So if anyone has either of these and is willing to share id like that aswell. Thanks!

I consider the ‘core’ of a tornado as the area where EF3+ damage is produced. Based on aerial photos and survey information, Joplin’s looks to have peaked at approximately 1/2 mile in width along East 20th Street and Connecticut Avenue and again just past Rangeline. Greensburg looks to have been just under 3/4 mile in width on the south part of town and along US-54. It was very likely even larger south of town, with some estimates putting EF3+ damage spanning a mile in width.

Greensburg’s average speed was a little above 26 mph, and was actually up to 28mph when it went through the city. Joplin’s average speed varies on the source, but I got a little over 27mph as the average speed during its path through the city.

 

[phant]

I consider the ‘core’ of a tornado as the area where EF3+ damage is produced. Based on aerial photos and survey information, Joplin’s looks to have peaked at approximately 1/2 mile in width along East 20th Street and Connecticut Avenue and again just past Rangeline. Greensburg looks to have been just under 3/4 mile in width on the south part of town and along US-54. It was very likely even larger south of town, with some estimates putting EF3+ damage spanning a mile in width.

Greensburg’s average speed was a little above 26 mph, and was actually up to 28mph when it went through the city. Joplin’s average speed varies on the source, but I got a little over 27mph as the average speed during its path through the city.

Thank you, you have been very helpful

 

[Austin Dawg]

View attachment 32467
Supposedly an image of the Amory EF3 from March 24, 2023.

I wonder where it was shot. Much like I'm clueless about which neighborhood the Smithville footage was shot from.

 

[AJS]

I wonder where it was shot. Much like I'm clueless about which neighborhood the Smithville footage was shot from.

According to the post I saw it on, it was when it crossed 278 on waterway drive.

 

[Austin Dawg]

According to the post I saw it on, it was when it crossed 278 on waterway drive.

That is incredible. I used to fish in a few spots along the drive. It is more open to viewing the West to SW of Amory.

 

[Shelby]

I consider the ‘core’ of a tornado as the area where EF3+ damage is produced. Based on aerial photos and survey information, Joplin’s looks to have peaked at approximately 1/2 mile in width along East 20th Street and Connecticut Avenue and again just past Rangeline. Greensburg looks to have been just under 3/4 mile in width on the south part of town and along US-54. It was very likely even larger south of town, with some estimates putting EF3+ damage spanning a mile in width.

Greensburg’s average speed was a little above 26 mph, and was actually up to 28mph when it went through the city. Joplin’s average speed varies on the source, but I got a little over 27mph as the average speed during its path through the city.

I live not far from Joplin and was there about 4 days after the tornado struck. The width of the damage was unreal and till this day there is not a single tree standing in the area. I have more photos I can find but these are a few. One photo I am searching for that I took shocked me the most. It was a completely debarked tree and it had a painting of mother Theresa plastered to it. The painting was literally embedded into the tree. I’ve never seen anything like it before.

Photos include:

A former house with a vacant foundation and a storm cellar, severe tree damage, phone poles snapped close to the bottom which is usually an indication of extreme intensity. I came upon one house that looked as though the driveway had been scoured away and very large rocks were piled by the front step. Not sure if these rocks were once the driveway. It was a very sad to see the damage and you could smell death in the air from rotting animals.

 

[Shelby]

I live not far from Joplin and was there about 4 days after the tornado struck. The width of the damage was unreal and till this day there is not a single tree standing in the area. I have more photos I can find but these are a few. One photo I am searching for that I took shocked me the most. It was a completely debarked tree and it had a painting of mother Theresa plastered to it. The painting was literally embedded into the tree. I’ve never seen anything like it before.

Photos include:

A former house with a vacant foundation and a storm cellar, severe tree damage, phone poles snapped close to the bottom which is usually an indication of extreme intensity. I came upon one house that looked as though the driveway had been scoured away and very large rocks were piled by the front step. Not sure if these rocks were once the driveway. It was a very sad to see the damage and you could smell death in the air from rotting animals.

Not my photos but feel these show the true extent of the damage.

 

[NewFoundWeatherNerd]

Question on the 5/24/2011 Piedmont OK EF5:
Does anyone have any other view of the Red Chevy Avalanche that was shriveled into a tree by this EF5? Ive only found 2-3 photos of this INCREDIBLY impressive damage despite the fact that this is arguably the most impressive vehicle damage Ive seen in my time surfing tornado damage (at least top 3). According to the NWS: this vehicle was originally parked within a garage, before being thrown 650 meters and subsequently pancaked. I just have to know more about this....