Significant Tornado Events

[joshoctober16]

You've clearly never read TornadoTalk's article on it, it's easily the most violent tornado in North Dakota history.

it also had the second widest ground scouring trail, only behind jarrell and only by a little bit.

 

[TH2002]

You've clearly never read TornadoTalk's article on it, it's easily the most violent tornado in North Dakota history.

Well, I can't read it cause it's paywalled...

I do know TornadoTalk generally does good work so I'm willing to take their word. I'm just saying that I have over 20 photos from Marion and none of them show any clear-cut F5 structural damage though. Not saying it wasn't an F5, because if any of the photos I had showed a well anchored home swept clean, I would call it an F5 without question.

 

[joshoctober16]

Well, I can't read it cause it's paywalled...

I do know TornadoTalk generally does good work so I'm willing to take their word. I'm just saying that I have over 20 photos from Marion and none of them show any clear-cut F5 structural damage though. Not saying it wasn't an F5, because if any of the photos I had showed a well anchored home swept clean, I would call it an F5 without question.

do you have any images of the noot's home? thats where it threw a safe 1 mile away, it broke the basement wall, the floor joist is remove and sub flooring is peeled off.

also note the scouring was 700 yards wide apparently...

 

[TH2002]

do you have any images of the noot's home? thats where it threw a safe 1 mile away, it broke the basement wall, the floor joist is remove and sub flooring is peeled off.

also note the scouring was 700 yards wide apparently...

Is this it? This is an unreinforced block foundation and there's no anchoring though:

 

[pohnpei]

Is this it? This is an unreinforced block foundation and there's no anchoring though:

I can see that damage to house like this would receive at most low end EF4 rating nowadays even with bolts connection like Dalton etc. The meaning of "well constructed" likely already changed a lot through time.

Some before and after views of the tornado. The damage it made was definitely high end but I do have question would it be discussed as a genuine EF5 candidate if happened today. Like Dalton MN 2020 or Alpena SD 2014 almost had all of these features but I never see people included them as top5 or top10 strongest of all time.

 

[TH2002]

Currently looking for a quote from Grazulis regarding the Jarrell tornado. I know it's probably buried here somewhere and said 'a study [by the NIST] concluded the damage at Jarrell could have been caused by F3 winds, yet F5 was quickly announced' or something along those lines. Anyone know the exact quote I'm talking about?

(Obviously I don't agree with that sentiment in the slightest, and that NIST study is a load of crap, but I just want to make sure my mind isn't playing tricks on me lol.)

 

[TH2002]

I can see that damage to house like this would receive at most low end EF4 rating nowadays even with bolts connection like Dalton etc. The meaning of "well constructed" likely already changed a lot through time.
View attachment 23437View attachment 23438View attachment 23439View attachment 23440View attachment 23441View attachment 23442
Some before and after views of the tornado. The damage it made was definitely high end but I do have question would it be discussed as a genuine EF5 candidate if happened today. Like Dalton MN 2020 or Alpena SD 2014 almost had all of these features but I never see people included them as top5 or top10 strongest of all time.

This illustrates my point perfectly. Marion was extremely violent and it almost certainly reached F5/EF5 intensity. No doubt. I just think its reputation as "one of the most violent tornadoes ever documented" is more attributable to internet rumors than anything else. Tornadoes like the ones you mentioned along with others like Stanton and Coleridge haven't earned a similar reputation despite the damage in those cases being very similar to Marion.

 

[pohnpei]

The South Frankfort to Stamping Ground, KY F4 Tornado and Downburst Disaster of April 3, 1974 – Tornado Talk

www.tornadotalk.com

the first article of 1974 super outbreak series of tornadotalk.

 

[pohnpei]

This illustrates my point perfectly. Marion was extremely violent and it almost certainly reached F5/EF5 intensity. No doubt. I just think its reputation as "one of the most violent tornadoes ever documented" is more attributable to internet rumors than anything else. Tornadoes like the ones you mentioned along with others like Stanton and Coleridge haven't earned a similar reputation despite the damage in those cases being very similar to Marion.

Yeah, especially Stanton. Even encountered little, the contextual damage of this tornado was on par with any high end EF5 tornado in history. I'm quite surprised it almost never got involved into the strongest tornado list. Both 2003 and 2014 Coleridge tornado could be pretty high end. For Coleridge 2014, even overall DI it had was limited, but just the visual appearance and radar couplet combined could convinced me of likely extreme intensity it had. There were several very experienced chasers like Simon Brewer said with a confidence that it was the strongest tornado they ever witness.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I

I can see that damage to house like this would receive at most low end EF4 rating nowadays even with bolts connection like Dalton etc. The meaning of "well constructed" likely already changed a lot through time.
View attachment 23437View attachment 23438View attachment 23439View attachment 23440View attachment 23441View attachment 23442
Some before and after views of the tornado. The damage it made was definitely high end but I do have question would it be discussed as a genuine EF5 candidate if happened today. Like Dalton MN 2020 or Alpena SD 2014 almost had all of these features but I never see people included them as top5 or top10 strongest of all time.

One of the surveyors involved apparently regrets rating it a high-end F4 instead of F5. The thing about this tornado is that it also committed large ground scouring, debarked trees, shredded low lying vegetation and mangled vehicles beyond recognition and wrapped their frames around trees and the like. It definitely had all the hallmarks of F5 and likely would have been rated as such had it occurred before La Plata in 2002.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

The South Frankfort to Stamping Ground, KY F4 Tornado and Downburst Disaster of April 3, 1974 – Tornado Talk

www.tornadotalk.com

the first article of 1974 super outbreak series of tornadotalk.

Yeah it's really interesting, the last half of this thing's path was actually a downburst and not a tornado, Fujita noted this in his survey of the event but it was buried for decades.

 

[pohnpei]

I


One of the surveyors involved apparently regrets rating it a high-end F4 instead of F5. The thing about this tornado is that it also committed large ground scouring, debarked trees, shredded low lying vegetation and mangled vehicles beyond recognition and wrapped their frames around trees and the like. It definitely had all the hallmarks of F5 and likely would have been rated as such had it occurred before La Plata in 2002.

Yeah, never gotta question these.
It's just there were tornados did very similar things but never got its reputation maybe because no surveyor regret it or tornadotalk never made a article about it. But the damage was there.
Like Alpena, it leveled quite well constructed house, completely debarked trees, completely dismantled combined and tossed, wrapped cars around trees, violently scoured the ground, completely shredded shurbs. It had all of it.

 

[TH2002]

I


One of the surveyors involved apparently regrets rating it a high-end F4 instead of F5. The thing about this tornado is that it also committed large ground scouring, debarked trees, shredded low lying vegetation and mangled vehicles beyond recognition and wrapped their frames around trees and the like. It definitely had all the hallmarks of F5 and likely would have been rated as such had it occurred before La Plata in 2002.

Yeah, Marion would have undoubtedly achieved an F5 rating if it occurred before 2000. I just don't understand its reputation as one of the "strongest of all time" though.

 

[pohnpei]

It's been well known that some of the F3 rating tornados from April 2 2006 outbreak could be underrated. But Wynne Ar was discussed less than others. Some very violent damage it did: pretty much eveything in this factory was mangled beyond recognition.

The tornado had very impressive footages

New Bern TN tornado that day was also pretty strong

Another F3 was Dyer Country TN

 

[TH2002]

Yeah, never gotta question these.
It's just there were tornados did very similar things but never got its reputation maybe because no surveyor regret it or tornadotalk never made a article about it. But the damage was there.
Like Alpena, it leveled quite well constructed house, completely debarked trees, completely dismantled combined and tossed, wrapped cars around trees, violently scoured the ground, completely shredded shurbs. It had all of it.
View attachment 23451View attachment 23452View attachment 23453View attachment 23454View attachment 23455View attachment 23456View attachment 23457

Those Alpena damage shots, holy moly. I could honestly see an argument for EF5 as-is (though I DON'T think Alpena is an example of a horrifically botched survey like Vilonia) despite the construction flaws present at the highest-rated residence the tornado encountered. However, this is another tornado I feel an EF5 rating would have been necessary for (and the rating "horrifically botched") if the home's foundation had been poured concrete w/ proper anchor bolts along the entire perimeter.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

So, got done reading TornadoTalk's article on the Frankfort, Kentucky tornado. This thing was over a mile wide at points and likely one of the widest tornadoes of the outbreak. One of the most interesting revelations is that the damage that starts near and through Stamping Ground, KY to the end of the tornado's path was done by a downburst and not a tornado. Apparently a strong downburst behind a weakening tornado undercut the tornado circulation; thus, in effect, wiping out the swirling motion. Grazulis lists the path of this tornado as 36 miles, but doesn't separate it into a tornado and downburst. Amazing to think how a relatively obscure correction by a man undisputedly known as the greatest tornado scientist the world has yet seen was buried and forgotten without reaching the public sphere for decades.

The South Frankfort to Stamping Ground, KY F4 Tornado and Downburst Disaster of April 3, 1974 – Tornado Talk

www.tornadotalk.com

As for the rating I'd say the F4 was approriate then and likely would be now (well, at least before Vilonia lol). The Big Eddy area is where it seemed to peak in strength, shredding groves of trees and throwing automobiles hundreds of yards. One of the most impressive things from this tornado is hit a junkyard or storage area of some sort and dozens, if not hundreds of cars were thrown up to 400 yards across a field. The damage is violent and vehicles were crushed and significant distances but nothing weren't torn apart or stripped down to chassis like you see with F5/EF5 events. Lots of photos in the article can be accesed via newspapers.com or the Kentucky State Archives so if you can't access the full article you might try to look there.

 

[TH2002]

The 2008 Picher tornado has been discussed in this thread before, but I'm gonna bring it up again...

First off, I do not think EF4 is egregious and fully understand why that rating was assigned - most or all of the homes it encountered were unanchored, or poorly anchored at best. However, even ignoring the "well, by probability alone it must have encountered at least ONE well-anchored home" argument, for me personally Picher is a case of "if the shoe fits, wear it" as far as potential EF5 ratings go. I base this on the fact that the tornado actually managed to crack and scour part of a home's slab foundation. The slab was poured rather thinly though, so that is a consideration, but it's still extremely impressive when you consider all the other high-end contextual damage this tornado did. Normally I wouldn't consider a poorly anchored home to be eligible for an EF5 rating, but since the slab itself was damaged, calling it EF5 at least makes sense imo.

 

[buckeye05]

The 2008 Picher tornado has been discussed in this thread before, but I'm gonna bring it up again...

First off, I do not think EF4 is egregious and fully understand why that rating was assigned - most or all of the homes it encountered were unanchored, or poorly anchored at best. However, even ignoring the "well, by probability alone it must have encountered at least ONE well-anchored home" argument, for me personally Picher is a case of "if the shoe fits, wear it" as far as potential EF5 ratings go. I base this on the fact that the tornado actually managed to crack and scour part of a home's slab foundation. The slab was poured rather thinly though, so that is a consideration, but it's still extremely impressive when you consider all the other high-end contextual damage this tornado did. Normally I wouldn't consider a poorly anchored home to be eligible for an EF5 rating, but since the slab itself was damaged, calling it EF5 at least makes sense imo.

Foundation damage aside, any tornado that completely scours short lawn or pasture-type grass down to bare soil along an even swath like that, especially in a rural area away from structures, always gets big points from me in terms of evidence of a particularly high-end tornado. It seems to be strongly linked to the most violent of tornadoes.

In fact, I’ve come to find this type of scouring more impressive than the deep plowing up of earth that we see in some events. In 2022, we saw the Clarks, LA EF3 do this on November 29th. Even more telling, the Mauk, GA EF1 produced this same phenomenon on April 5th earlier that same year. I’m sure there’s other examples too.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

The 2008 Picher tornado has been discussed in this thread before, but I'm gonna bring it up again...

First off, I do not think EF4 is egregious and fully understand why that rating was assigned - most or all of the homes it encountered were unanchored, or poorly anchored at best. However, even ignoring the "well, by probability alone it must have encountered at least ONE well-anchored home" argument, for me personally Picher is a case of "if the shoe fits, wear it" as far as potential EF5 ratings go. I base this on the fact that the tornado actually managed to crack and scour part of a home's slab foundation. The slab was poured rather thinly though, so that is a consideration, but it's still extremely impressive when you consider all the other high-end contextual damage this tornado did. Normally I wouldn't consider a poorly anchored home to be eligible for an EF5 rating, but since the slab itself was damaged, calling it EF5 at least makes sense imo.

Picher is impressive for many reason. One thing is that it had a 75-mile long path, you don't see that too often with plains events. Also I think it achieved peak intensity when it was on the Missouri side of its path where it 15 of its 21 fatalities occurred and automobiles were thrown up to half a mile. I've always thought it hit EF5 intensity in Missouri, not necessarily Oklahoma.

 

[buckeye05]

Also that Picher home appears to have similar construction to the 190 MPH home in Bremen, KY. Appears to be a thin slab, resting on top of some kind of gravel fill underneath. Weird construction.

There was an episode of a Weather Channel show where they actually interviewed the people who lived in that house. I think it was Storm Stories? If I remember correctly, they survived by hiding in the bathtub visible in the second photo.