Significant Tornado Events

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

All had basements w/CMU walls, but from what I understand in talking with people who lived in the neighborhood, some houses were anchored (bolts inserted into filled-in cores). Certainly not what you'd call well-built in any case.

The context for an F5 is all there, though; ground scouring, trees debarked, vehicles stripped to their frame, industrial buildings swept away completely, etc.

 

[buckeye05]

Yeah the most impressive thing to me about Barrie was definitely the contextual damage. The car and vegetation damage in that one area reminds me of El Reno 2011.

 

[locomusic01]

So, two quick 5/31/85 updates. First, I found out why that tornado I stumbled upon was never officially documented. In the NWS Service Assessment, they mention:

This also fits within the right time frame for our mystery tornado, so I'd say that pretty much settles that. The second thing is something that's been vexing me all day. There's not a lot of information out there on the Centerville-area tornadoes to begin with, and what is there is very messy and contradictory. Most sources seem to agree there were two tornadoes, but they disagree on which path was which, which one caused the two fatalities, etc. Even the accounts of some of the people I heard from didn't quite seem to fit together.

I did my best to make sense of it while I was creating my map and I wound up with this (the fatality east of Centerville isn't confirmed yet - still working on it):

Well, now that I'm focusing more on this area, I've got a couple of different accounts that.. sort of clear things up? A woman who lived northeast of Townville as a kid (around where the track seems to get narrower) said that she was in the basement with her family when the storm approached. She heard a lot of wind but no roar, and her property only suffered minor damage. A neighbor later told her parents that they watched the tornado "pick up" just as it approached her house. A few minutes later, firefighters at the fire department just north of Centerville saw a slender little funnel touch down and quickly explode into a "large wedge tornado" just before entering the south side of town.

That makes it sound like the Saegertown tornado should actually be two tornadoes, with the second (the Centerville F3) being responsible for the fatalities. It seems some sources treat these as separate tornadoes and others don't, which would account for a lot of the discrepancies. Only problem is that both Storm Data and Grazulis list the Saegertown tornado as lifting just east of Centerville and the Centerville tornado lifting east of Buells Corners. That obviously doesn't fit if Saegertown cycled near Townville, yet I haven't come across any damage points or eyewitness accounts that'd suggest there were actually two tornadoes near Centerville itself.

So that's all as clear as mud, but what made things especially confusing for me is that, as you can see on my map, there was an entirely distinct tornado further to the southeast as well. I've talked to a few different people who confirmed they either saw it, heard it or were hit by it, and I've also found a couple brief news stories on it. I'd assumed that was the second tornado mentioned in all the sources, but I couldn't figure out why none of the "official" information on it (what little there was) seemed to really fit.

Which is all to say that I'm still not entirely sure I understand what happened, but here's what I think. The Saegertown tornado lifted and quickly cycled northeast of Townville, producing the killer tornado that tracked through the south part of Centerville before dissipating near the end of the current path. Some time later (no one can seem to agree on exactly when), the other tornado on my map touched down a couple miles northeast of Hydetown, doing most of its damage around the Shelmadine Springs area before dissipating just across the border in Warren County.

Assuming this is correct, which may or may not be a safe assumption, that means the Shelmadine Springs path is another tornado that was never officially counted. I haven't gotten any photos from that area yet, but from a few descriptions it sounds like it was probably in the F1-F2 range. One man said his barn and a couple other outbuildings were "blown apart" and part of his roof was ripped off, on another property a grove of trees was "mowed down" and a tractor was tumbled out through a field, etc.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

So, two quick 5/31/85 updates. First, I found out why that tornado I stumbled upon was never officially documented. In the NWS Service Assessment, they mention:

This also fits within the right time frame for our mystery tornado, so I'd say that pretty much settles that. The second thing is something that's been vexing me all day. There's not a lot of information out there on the Centerville-area tornadoes to begin with, and what is there is very messy and contradictory. Most sources seem to agree there were two tornadoes, but they disagree on which path was which, which one caused the two fatalities, etc. Even the accounts of some of the people I heard from didn't quite seem to fit together.

I did my best to make sense of it while I was creating my map and I wound up with this (the fatality east of Centerville isn't confirmed yet - still working on it):

Well, now that I'm focusing more on this area, I've got a couple of different accounts that.. sort of clear things up? A woman who lived northeast of Townville as a kid (around where the track seems to get narrower) said that she was in the basement with her family when the storm approached. She heard a lot of wind but no roar, and her property only suffered minor damage. A neighbor later told her parents that they watched the tornado "pick up" just as it approached her house. A few minutes later, firefighters at the fire department just north of Centerville saw a slender little funnel touch down and quickly explode into a "large wedge tornado" just before entering the south side of town.

That makes it sound like the Saegertown tornado should actually be two tornadoes, with the second (the Centerville F3) being responsible for the fatalities. It seems some sources treat these as separate tornadoes and others don't, which would account for a lot of the discrepancies. Only problem is that both Storm Data and Grazulis list the Saegertown tornado as lifting just east of Centerville and the Centerville tornado lifting east of Buells Corners. That obviously doesn't fit if Saegertown cycled near Townville, yet I haven't come across any damage points or eyewitness accounts that'd suggest there were actually two tornadoes near Centerville itself.

So that's all as clear as mud, but what made things especially confusing for me is that, as you can see on my map, there was an entirely distinct tornado further to the southeast as well. I've talked to a few different people who confirmed they either saw it, heard it or were hit by it, and I've also found a couple brief news stories on it. I'd assumed that was the second tornado mentioned in all the sources, but I couldn't figure out why none of the "official" information on it (what little there was) seemed to really fit.

Which is all to say that I'm still not entirely sure I understand what happened, but here's what I think. The Saegertown tornado lifted and quickly cycled northeast of Townville, producing the killer tornado that tracked through the south part of Centerville before dissipating near the end of the current path. Some time later (no one can seem to agree on exactly when), the other tornado on my map touched down a couple miles northeast of Hydetown, doing most of its damage around the Shelmadine Springs area before dissipating just across the border in Warren County.

Assuming this is correct, which may or may not be a safe assumption, that means the Shelmadine Springs path is another tornado that was never officially counted. I haven't gotten any photos from that area yet, but from a few descriptions it sounds like it was probably in the F1-F2 range. One man said his barn and a couple other outbuildings were "blown apart" and part of his roof was ripped off, on another property a grove of trees was "mowed down" and a tractor was tumbled out through a field, etc.

Wait so the Saegertown tornado was actually two tornadoes while the F3 near Hydetown wasn't officially counted? Or is there a newly uncovered tornado that isn't on the map? WTF?

 

[TH2002]

Hope I'm allowed to share this stuff from Goessel and Andover because honestly I can't help it anymore. Apologies for the awkward photos, these are from two different books so not sure how I'd go about scanning them

Well built house reduced to its basement, Goessel


Assorted ground shots from Andover

 

[locomusic01]

WTF?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm still not totally sure, but this is more or less my best guess right now:

So the single long-tracked Saegertown F3 is actually two separate tornadoes (the Saegertown F3 followed by the Centerville F3) and the shorter track to the south is the Shelmadine Springs tornado that wasn't documented. I've colored it gray since there's no official rating, but it sounds like probably high F1/low F2 range.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

He does but he also lists the 1993 Utah tornado (which caused tree damage comparable to Teton-Yellowstone) as an F1. He's the best of the best IMO but like anyone else has made some mistakes. Granted when he has lowballed tornadoes it can probably be attributed to Grazulis not having the tools we have at our disposal now when Significant Tornadoes was first published.

The 1993 Utah tornado is understandable given that it spent all of its life in extremely remote wilderness areas & the only man-made structures it encountered were a camp and possibly truss towers. It's difficult to find much info on that event outside of Tornado Talk's article.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Hope I'm allowed to share this stuff from Goessel and Andover because honestly I can't help it anymore. Apologies for the awkward photos, these are from two different books so not sure how I'd go about scanning them

Well built house reduced to its basement, Goessel
View attachment 13983

Assorted ground shots from Andover
View attachment 13984
View attachment 13985
View attachment 13986

That 2nd Andover photo shows very intense-looking damage in the background; probably a ton of trees debarked with lots of debris wrapped around them.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

So the single long-tracked Saegertown F3 is actually two separate tornadoes (the Saegertown F3 followed by the Centerville F3) and the shorter track to the south is the Shelmadine Springs tornado that wasn't documented. I've colored it gray since there's no official rating, but it sounds like probably high F1/low F2 range.

Alright. So which one caused the borderline F4 damage, and are there any photos of the Saegertown section of the path?

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

The 1993 Utah tornado is understandable given that it spent all of its life in extremely remote wilderness areas & the only man-made structures it encountered were a camp and possibly truss towers. It's difficult to find much info on that event outside of Tornado Talk's article.

I don't think the 1993 Uintas Mountain tornado encountered any truss towers as it passed through a wilderness area where metal transmission towers probably wouldn't be allowed to be constructed.

 

[locomusic01]

Alright. So which one caused the borderline F4 damage, and are there any photos of the Saegertown section of the path?

Saegertown, and yes. I've got a handful of damage photos + a sequence of three photos of the tornado taken roughly around the time it was at peak intensity.

Edit: I also finally tracked down a family member of the guy who took the series of tornado photos in Centerville (the really awful quality newspaper clipping I posted before). They didn't know where the photos are but they said they'd look for them. Not getting my hopes up but you never know.

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Saegertown, and yes. I've got a handful of damage photos + a sequence of three photos of the tornado taken roughly around the time it was at peak intensity.

Edit: I also finally tracked down a family member of the guy who took the series of tornado photos in Centerville (the really awful quality newspaper clipping I posted before). They didn't know where the photos are but they said they'd look for them. Not getting my hopes up but you never know.

In your opinion, how many of the tornadoes from the outbreak do you think were F4+?

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

In your opinion, how many of the tornadoes from the outbreak do you think were F4+?

I think he listed Saegertown, Mesopotamia, Beaver Falls, Elimsport, Johnstown and Alma as going up to F4. He also said New Waterford was also possibly an F4. He has also stated that Barrie probably was an F5 and says there are good cases for Atlantic and Tionesta as well.

 

[locomusic01]

In your opinion, how many of the tornadoes from the outbreak do you think were F4+.

Beaver Falls is probably the only F3 I'd say is for sure underrated, but there's a good case for Saegertown and Elimsport (which Grazulis already rated F4) as well. I've heard some impressive accounts from the Alma and Mesopotamia F3s but nothing that's really been borne out by the evidence I've seen so far. Barrie may well have been an F5 IMO. Possibly Atlantic as well but I don't really have a problem with F4. I've kinda gone back and forth on Tionesta because it didn't hit a whole lot when it was at its absolute peak, but it did some awfully impressive stuff (threw a truck ~0.8 mi, produced a pretty large swath of ground scouring, etc).

Of course, those are just my personal opinions. Like I've said before, if the outbreak were to happen today you'd probably actually see lower ratings (depending on who did the surveying) just because of the lesser construction quality in the Northeast and the tendency to dismiss/downplay contextual damage.

 

[TH2002]

The 1993 Utah tornado is understandable given that it spent all of its life in extremely remote wilderness areas & the only man-made structures it encountered were a camp and possibly truss towers. It's difficult to find much info on that event outside of Tornado Talk's article.

If I had to guess the primary basis for his F1 rating is the damage it caused at the scout camp; tools like OpenMapTiles and Google Maps satellite view obviously didn't exist when SigTor was first published, and with the sheer amount of tornadoes to cover (along with the lack of detailed survey information, as opposed to the Teton-Yellowstone F4) I doubt he was able to devote much attention to a tornado that caused very little damage to man-made structures.

With that said, the totality and severity of the tree damage this thing caused is nothing short of incredible; if you would like to check it out for yourself: punch these coordinates into Google Maps or the like:
40.673868, -110.120258

Though listed as three separate touchdowns I believe there were two separate tornadoes; a first, brief touchdown followed by a longer path consisting two areas of felled trees. The likely reason it's listed this way is because the second tornado crossed over an area with absolutely no DI's for a time, and the possibility of the cell cycling during that time isn't out of the question, though the paths can be easily connected and a weakening trend identified as such. The coordinates for the second area of blowdown from the second tornado:
40.711483, -110.051636

Coordinates for what I believe might be the first tornado: not 100% sure though, the Tornado Talk article had the exact coordinates but naturally it's behind a paywall. Oh well I guess?
40.625493, -110.202910

It's also amazing just how well preserved the damage from this tornado is; it's probably one of, if not the best example of preserved tornado damage in the world, and shows that intense to violent tornadoes can alter the landscape for decades if not centuries.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

If I had to guess the primary basis for his F1 rating is the damage it caused at the scout camp; tools like OpenMapTiles and Google Maps satellite view obviously didn't exist when SigTor was first published, and with the sheer amount of tornadoes to cover (along with the lack of detailed survey information, as opposed to the Teton-Yellowstone F4) I doubt he was able to devote much attention to a tornado that caused very little damage to man-made structures.

With that said, the totality and severity of the tree damage this thing caused is nothing short of incredible; if you would like to check it out for yourself: punch these coordinates into Google Maps or the like:
40.673868, -110.120258

Though listed as three separate touchdowns I believe there were two separate tornadoes; a first, brief touchdown followed by a longer path consisting two areas of felled trees. The likely reason it's listed this way is because the second tornado crossed over an area with absolutely no DI's for a time, and the possibility of the cell cycling during that time isn't out of the question, though the paths can be easily connected and a weakening trend identified as such. The coordinates for the second area of blowdown from the second tornado:
40.711483, -110.051636

Coordinates for what I believe might be the first tornado: not 100% sure though, the Tornado Talk article had the exact coordinates but naturally it's behind a paywall. Oh well I guess?
40.625493, -110.202910

It's also amazing just how well preserved the damage from this tornado is; it's probably one of, if not the best example of preserved tornado damage in the world, and shows that intense to violent tornadoes can alter the landscape for decades if not centuries.

Given how remote the area is it'll likely remain visible for centuries; the same might happen with Moshannon State Forest. Quite a big of the Dixie tornado's paths through forests are visible for years, if not decades.
I actually think Jarrell's scar is visible 20+ years later, amazing.

 

[pohnpei]

Some damage photos of Katie OK 2016 tornado. The deep grass scouring It made was definitely noteworthy. It's such a big regret that It missed all three probe and DOW and RaxPol team deployment that day. The damage It made was stronger than Sulphur obviously.

 

[SouthFLwx]

Some damage photos of Katie OK 2016 tornado. The deep grass scouring It made was definitely noteworthy. It's such a big regret that It missed all three probe and DOW and RaxPol team deployment that day. The damage It made was stronger than Sulphur obviously.
View attachment 13987View attachment 13988View attachment 13989View attachment 13990View attachment 13991View attachment 13992

That looks like some intense scouring, makes me wonder if it had EF5 potential.

 

[locomusic01]

So I've been getting some more Bridge Creek-Moore photos sent to me in the last few days after the anniversary. I haven't had time to sort through them much yet, but this small batch definitely caught my eye. These are from Moore but the woman didn't say exactly where. I'm hoping she remembers, because holy moly.

Edit: Thinking about it for a second, I think they may be from near Country Place (S Pennsylvania & SW 134th), which is where this demolished Grand Am was thrown a mile and blown under a bridge:

Edit 2: Electric Boogaloo: Yup! I thought that second photo looked sorta familiar so I checked my other pictures from that area. (The bridge in the background is where the Grand Am was found btw)

 

[locomusic01]

Two other quick things while I'm ADHD-ing here instead of working on my article. First, I didn't fully realize it before but holy crap the Albion and Corry tornadoes were absolutely bookin'. I took all the arrival times for different areas that I thought were credible and they average out to just a shade under 60 mph (ranging from roughly 56 to 65 mph for various sections of the paths). Even if you just go with the "slowest" section, that's among the fastest storms of the day. Makes sense that a lot of people described the experience as disorienting, going from nothing to full-on destruction to nothing again in basically seconds.

And second, re: the Saegertown/Centerville thing from yesterday, I talked to two other people this morning who lived in the same general area where that first person said the tornado lifted. They also confirmed that there was a small funnel cloud aloft but it wasn't touching or doing damage on the ground. So I'm reasonably confident I've got the right idea now as far as the Saegertown-Centerville track being two separate tornadoes, with an undocumented tornado further south around Hydetown/Shelmadine Springs.