This illustrates the problem perfectly. In the books, Newnan is recorded as being stronger than Matador, when that just objectively isn't true. How are no higher-ups in the NWS seeing this and not going, "hmmm this doesn't add up"? You don't even have to be an expert to see the problem here.
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Current Tropical Systems Erin
June 21st 2023 Matador TX Tornado Discussion
- Thread starter Lake Martin EF4
- Start date
I'm not entirely convinced this isn't the case, but I also am skeptical based on what I've read about Texas Tech. This is reminding me a lot of the Westminster TX tornado from 2006. Similar type of damage, similar tornado.
Not agruing rather it should be this or that rating, but they should just send a NWS Jackson storm survey member in after each big tornado. Atleast there going to be a small chance of making the rating fair for everyone.
Very accurate comparison, and you're probably correct about Texas Tech being behind this. I guess we can discount any ratings from NWS Lubbock from here on out...
jiharris0220
Member
The other issue is the gate keeping people who use the tired “their the experts” argument.
I remember a particular post on Twitter comparing a side to side photo of a house that was slabbed being rated ef2, I think it was from the 2021Kentucky tornado? And another house with its entire roof still attached and it being rated ef3.
But people brushed it off saying the poster has no right to criticize the ratings.
I get that engineers know what they’re doing, but this mindset of “only officials get to have a say in things” even if something is glaringly wrong, is not good science.
Instead, it creates this self important standing of, “I’m better than you” or “you don’t get to have an opinion on this”.
Obviously mindless complaining about how they rate things can be ignored, but valid criticism of the scale by weather enthusiasts or people who have some knowledge on engineering should at least be acknowledged.
I remember a particular post on Twitter comparing a side to side photo of a house that was slabbed being rated ef2, I think it was from the 2021Kentucky tornado? And another house with its entire roof still attached and it being rated ef3.
But people brushed it off saying the poster has no right to criticize the ratings.
I get that engineers know what they’re doing, but this mindset of “only officials get to have a say in things” even if something is glaringly wrong, is not good science.
Instead, it creates this self important standing of, “I’m better than you” or “you don’t get to have an opinion on this”.
Obviously mindless complaining about how they rate things can be ignored, but valid criticism of the scale by weather enthusiasts or people who have some knowledge on engineering should at least be acknowledged.
Shakespeare 2016
Member
I said that too.
Shakespeare 2016
Member
Ok, young sir I will tell you this, I have many times have wrote NWS offices about a certain rating for tornadoes and every single office I wrote to never responds back. I was very nice about it as well. Do these people think I study tornado damage for my health? I am 43 years old and have been studying it for 20+ years so I think I have at least an idea of what I am talking about. When you get constantly ignored by these NWS offices am I supposed to jump up and down and cheer about it. Have I done or said anything to hurt you? So. what do you care what kind of messages I leave other NWS offices?
tornado examiner
Member
Let’s just all be thankful that not all offices are prone to this kind of stuff. Once again…gotta give props to nws Jackson. They actually used the 166mph ef4 rating on several structures that just ever so slightly pushed across that gap and warranted the rating.
Agreed - If NWS Jackson had surveyed this tornado, I reckon we would probably be seeing a 175-190mph rating, since even though the structures I have seen alone don't seem to warrant more than 170mph (at least in my opinion), they would have upgraded appropriately given the exceptional context - which is how it should be done...
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Another factor as well that has to be on the minds of WFOs and NWS employees when they go out to survey:
Similar to La Plata syndrome, it’s like they know they have to go the lowest bound/rating possible. If they rate a structure incorrectly, especially for higher event tornados, there’s always going to be a follow up study by a non-government entity or other firm such as the ASCE. Those “post studies” have a real “well actkually” type energy about them that calls out the specific flaws of the survey. Like with Joplin, and Jarrell. No one likes to be told their wrong, and especially no one likes to be told their wrong publicly. I’m sure that mindset has permeated among a couple of WFOs, maybe even at NWS-TTU(Lubbock).
A good example of this I’ve quoted ad nauseam throughout this thread:
www.joplinglobe.com
Similar to La Plata syndrome, it’s like they know they have to go the lowest bound/rating possible. If they rate a structure incorrectly, especially for higher event tornados, there’s always going to be a follow up study by a non-government entity or other firm such as the ASCE. Those “post studies” have a real “well actkually” type energy about them that calls out the specific flaws of the survey. Like with Joplin, and Jarrell. No one likes to be told their wrong, and especially no one likes to be told their wrong publicly. I’m sure that mindset has permeated among a couple of WFOs, maybe even at NWS-TTU(Lubbock).
A good example of this I’ve quoted ad nauseam throughout this thread:
Civil engineers release study of Joplin tornado damage
It did not take much wind to flatten houses in the Joplin tornado zone because so many were poorly constructed to withstand wind, according to a study released recently by
Sawmaster
Member
So you know what the problem is and who is causing it yet you still seem to blindly support them and worse, you ask for others to do similarly. Sorry but my conscience will not let me be so stupid. I'll back them when the8ir reality check stops bouncing, and not a second sooner.
Thankful yes, but we shouldn't be. This is what normal and proper behavior is, and it should be expected instead of being exceptional.
When I did my apprenticeship for Trim Carpentry I heard only one compliment in those 2 years. I asked what he thought of my work and he said "It's OK." Temper that against my butt getting chewed off a dozen times for leaving something which I could have done better. To explain, he told me "People expect your work to be perfect and you'll never hear from them unless it ain't. So take the silence and the contractor's offer to do the next job as a sign that you're doing things right, but never stop trying to do better becayse you can do somnething better. You should be your own harshest judge."
Ain't too much to ask for some degree-holding turd-bucket to do likewise, especially when I, supposedly lacking education and expertise in the matter, can clearly see his flaws. I'm the taxpaying customer here and I'm speaking up
Sawmaster
Member
Long ago a friend told me "Offense is taken, not given". Nobody can insult or impugn you unless you let them do it. If these fwits come along afterward telling you that you were wrong inform them (and everyone else) that if it was thought that they could do a more accurate job than you do, they would get the job.
Which explains part of the systemic problem in that someone screwed up and gave them that job. so now nobody else can possibly be right even if they are.
tornado examiner
Member
Well in both my documentations I’ve already got this tornado as a low end ef4 plus…just cause of how obvious it is.
Oops, bit of a typo in my message as I meant to say "given there was exceptional context", sorry about that! And yeah, completely agree with your message. The standard from NWS Jackson should be the same or at least similar in all WFOs that rate strong-violent tornadoes. It's hugely inconsistent otherwise - which leads to these massive discrepencies with tornados like Newnan being higher officially than Matador (as someone mentioned above!).So you know what the problem is and who is causing it yet you still seem to blindly support them and worse, you ask for others to do similarly. Sorry but my conscience will not let me be so stupid. I'll back them when the8ir reality check stops bouncing, and not a second sooner.
Thankful yes, but we shouldn't be. This is what normal and proper behavior is, and it should be expected instead of being exceptional.
When I did my apprenticeship for Trim Carpentry I heard only one compliment in those 2 years. I asked what he thought of my work and he said "It's OK." Temper that against my butt getting chewed off a dozen times for leaving something which I could have done better. To explain, he told me "People expect your work to be perfect and you'll never hear from them unless it ain't. So take the silence and the contractor's offer to do the next job as a sign that you're doing things right, but never stop trying to do better becayse you can do somnething better. You should be your own harshest judge."
Ain't too much to ask for some degree-holding turd-bucket to do likewise, especially when I, supposedly lacking education and expertise in the matter, can clearly see his flaws. I'm the taxpaying customer here and I'm speaking up
Shakespeare 2016
Member
I would say it was a high-end EF4+
What are you talking about?
Shakespeare 2016
Member
Tim Marshall! Your probably more worried about fortune and fame than anything. You would make a great collection to work with people like Tim Marshall who would constantly lie to your face. I talked with Tim Marshall recently and he still agrees with the Westminster 2006 tornado being somewhere in between high-end F3 and low-end F4. You look like your young maybe mid 20s and if you want to get stuck in that type of kissing up to people who lie to you then go ahead.
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I understand where the frustration about Matador's rating comes from (don't get me wrong, the rating is load of BS) but let's refrain from personal attacks please...