Central Ohio Wx
Member
Was that the one calculated to be in the 140-170 mph range?
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Ozonelayer
Member
I think so? I can't really tell. But the car I identified is the orange coal hopper. It's actually one of the bigger coal hoppers that CSX (The train company) had on their list of cars they used.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Also, since Robinson's cycloidals have been brought up a few times recently:
I think these were caused by the removal of soil (in the vast majority of cases cycloidal marks are caused by debris deposition). There's two notable spots where it produced cycloidal marks; a higher-detailed flyover exists somewhere but I can't find it.
I think these were caused by the removal of soil (in the vast majority of cases cycloidal marks are caused by debris deposition). There's two notable spots where it produced cycloidal marks; a higher-detailed flyover exists somewhere but I can't find it.
csx1985
Member
Which Smithville claims are you referring to? I noticed the pipe pulled from the ground theory was debunked and Tornado Talk eventually edited stating the pipe, in question, was actually a “sand blasted” telephone pole.
What I find equally impressive, if not more mmmmmmmmm is that same telephone pole was impaled into the ground with such force that it resembled an underground pipe…
Central Ohio Wx
Member
While I'm certainly not defending Bakersfield's EF3 rating, I will say that some of the anchor bolts on the EF3 140 "swept to foundation" home are comically long:
For this structure in particular I would've went either 165 or 170 given the expected resistance being around that margin.
For this structure in particular I would've went either 165 or 170 given the expected resistance being around that margin.
Under zero circumstances should this be 140 mph. Can argue about whether it should be EF4 or not, but to assign this lower bound EF3 is just poor surveying.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I could see it getting 140 if the home slid, but in this case it didn't.
Grand Poo Bah
Member
Can you elaborate on why it matters that the anchor bolts are long? Also the expected value for DOD 10 is 200 mph. 165 or 170 would be the lower bound.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I'm about a month late but I noticed the March 2021 Newnan, Georgia EF4 was missing. I actually have significant doubts about this tornado's rating, given 8 out of 10 EF4 DIs I've already ruled out as legitimately being EF4 and the other two the images are too confusing to actually determine what happened.
WeathermanLeprechaun
Member
Yeah, Newnan was a interesting case. Didn't need the EF4 rating, would've been better off at EF3 from what I've seen. A rare case of a overrated tornado which isn't usually what people think of when you have NWS "mistakes"
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I'm applying DOD9; I don't know whether it would classify as a well-constructed residence or not. Definitely wouldn't argue for 200 though; 170 seems appropriate.
If I'm remembering correctly, bolts that are too long can lead to installation issues or otherwise compromise structural integrity for reasons I'm not really sure (I think concrete plays a part?); I admittedly am still learning about things like sill plates, bolts, toenailing, etc, so I could be completely wrong. The home also wasn't completely swept, with debris being piled up on one side.
Also, what specifically about sill plates weakens structural integrity? I've heard that as a common argument regarding the Marion EF4 and I'm not really getting it.
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Central Ohio Wx
Member
Almost all of the EF4 DIs involved either non-swept or slid homes; I think it was an over-liberal application of process. With the other two DIs it’s hard to see what happened but contextually the trees directly beside the residence were untouched.
AJS
Member
The Bakersfield survey is in contention for quite possibly the worst survey of the year. Same with Grinnell, KS.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Interestingly, AWC's "Wood-Framed Construction Manual" notes that "A minimum of one anchor bolt shall be provided within 6 to 12 inches of each end of each plate. Anchor bolts shall have a minimum embedment of 7 inches in concrete foundations and slabs on grade or 7 inches in masonry block foundations when resisting lateral and shear loads only" (specifically refering to sill plates; I can't find one for non-plate construction). I'm actually not sure whether length has anything to do with integrity; they define a minimum but not a maximum.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
EF3, 145 mile-per-hour DI from the December 10, 2021 Greenbriar EF3. A bit conflicted on this; while I can see where 145 came from (this building is horrendously-constructed) it doesn't appear to have slid. Contextuals are meh minus one tree near a small pond which was debarked. While the direction of the wind was likely going west (the second photo is facing east), the homes damaged in the background could've enhanced this level of debarking.
145 and 142 (respectively) DIs to the northwest and southwest. Right home looks weirdly-small while the left one wasn't resting on a slab.
Grand Poo Bah
Member
What makes you say this is horrendously constructed? I see a poured concrete foundation, anchored sill plates with joists that are spaced less than 16 inches (above code), and straight nailed subfloor. The fact the subfloor and joists are actually tore up where the walls came off tells me there was an adequate continuous load path through the entire structure. Also the tile and carpet being ripped up tells me the tornado was especially strong.
I'm going to add this to my spreadsheet of rerated tornadoes to an F4, but I'm honestly almost thinking F5 looking at these pics. In terms of EF rating, that's a textbook DOD 10, so the absolute lowest rating it should be given is 165. I see no reason it should be the absolute lowest bound though. I could maybe see an argument for 180 or 190.
Regardless thanks for sharing these details! Enjoying your posts.
Grand Poo Bah
Member
Also looking up the December 2021 outbreak again and it looks like the NWS is actually saying the Mayfield tornado had the longest track in history? When did that happen? I thought officially the Tri-state tornado was still (controversially) longer.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I'm stupid, I was looking for anchors on the wood foundation itself and not the bottom (still learning, mistakes happen). Go figure. 170-180 looks fine but the contextual damage is generally lacking outside of the one debarked tree. Could have been an intense and thin subvortex; numerous tornadoes on 12/10 displayed that characteristic. Would explain how quickly the damage goes from intense to significant.
Question:
- Red = plate?
- Green = bolt (self-explanatory)
- Yellow = ?
Maybe there's an engineer forum I could ask around at, but I'd rather make myself look dumb here than there. Off-season is boring and I've been trying to strike up damage-related conversations, but people are mostly offline.
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Central Ohio Wx
Member
I think it's either a typo or alternative spelling of "one of", which would put it up there among the longest, but not definitively the longest.
Grand Poo Bah
Member
Yellow is sill plate, green is bolt, red is joist.
Code for bolts is every 36 inches, joists is every 16 inches. These joists look like they're about 12 inches (could be wrong though) which tells me this was a sturdy structure.
The goal with rating homes is to look for a continuous load path from the roof to the ground. If the roof comes off easy the walls will come down just as easy, if the walls are poorly secured it's the same thing. If the house is properly secured from top to bottom it's much harder for the structure to fail because it basically has to be ripped off the ground in one piece.
When you see cracked subfloor and joists it tells you the walls were well secured to the floor at the very least.
@buckeye05 and @Sawmaster know more than me about the topic though.