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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

I've seen some references here to impressive lofting by the Canton, TX tornado of 4/29/2017.

A few questions, though:

WHICH Canton tornado was that? I often refer to these two monsters as "Canton" and "Eustace" with the latter referring to the EF4. I remember that the significant tornado thread had some indications that both had significant contextual damage and both could have been EF4, with at least one being a plausible EF5 contender. Can anyone share more?
 
I believe that based on Connell Miller's method, far more tornadoes than those discussed above could be included in the EF5 discussion list. Note that his cases include the 2020 Scarth MB tornado, which threw an SUV 30-50 meters away, yielding a median wind speed of 119 m/s through the Monte Carlo method—the same as the wind speed calculated for the Enderlin tornado. I can think of hundreds of similar cases, as throwing vehicles 50-100 meters is not uncommon and is not exclusive to EF4+ tornadoes.
Screenshot_2025-10-07-18-35-41-559_cn.wps.moffice_eng-edit.jpg

However, it’s also worth noting that the 2023 Dibsbury AB tornado threw a 9.8-ton combine harvester approximately 80-100 meters, resulting in a wind speed of 119 m/s via the Monte Carlo method—identical to the Enderlin tornado. Yet, the damage to nearby houses only corresponded to a 170 mph (76 m/s) wind speed, which seems contradictory.
Screenshot_2025-10-07-18-34-59-766_cn.wps.moffice_eng-edit.jpg
2e9b992bbcbb3631.jpg
20230704_232107.jpg

There are two possible explanations for this. First, as many have already pointed out, this method only considers horizontal wind speed, and the lift coefficient accounts solely for the Bernoulli effect generated by strong horizontal winds. In reality, tornadoes have significant vertical wind speeds, which could lead to an overestimation of wind speeds using this method. However, the EF scale does not define vertical wind speeds for tornadoes, so this method aligns well with the EF scale’s framework.

The second possibility is that the wind speed corresponding to the house destruction was underestimated. In fact, calculating the wind speed required to destroy a house is more challenging than calculating the wind needed to throw an object, as a house is a composite structure rather than a single solid object. Therefore, this possibility is entirely plausible.
 
pohnpei said:
I believe that based on Connell Miller's method, far more tornadoes than those discussed above could be included in the EF5 discussion list. Note that his cases include the 2020 Scarth MB tornado, which threw an SUV 30-50 meters away, yielding a median wind speed of 119 m/s through the Monte Carlo method—the same as the wind speed calculated for the Enderlin tornado. I can think of hundreds of similar cases, as throwing vehicles 50-100 meters is not uncommon and is not exclusive to EF4+ tornadoes.
View attachment 47035

However, it’s also worth noting that the 2023 Dibsbury AB tornado threw a 9.8-ton combine harvester approximately 80-100 meters, resulting in a wind speed of 119 m/s via the Monte Carlo method—identical to the Enderlin tornado. Yet, the damage to nearby houses only corresponded to a 170 mph (76 m/s) wind speed, which seems contradictory.
View attachment 47034
View attachment 47036
View attachment 47037

There are two possible explanations for this. First, as many have already pointed out, this method only considers horizontal wind speed, and the lift coefficient accounts solely for the Bernoulli effect generated by strong horizontal winds. In reality, tornadoes have significant vertical wind speeds, which could lead to an overestimation of wind speeds using this method. However, the EF scale does not define vertical wind speeds for tornadoes, so this method aligns well with the EF scale’s framework.

The second possibility is that the wind speed corresponding to the house destruction was underestimated. In fact, calculating the wind speed required to destroy a house is more challenging than calculating the wind needed to throw an object, as a house is a composite structure rather than a single solid object. Therefore, this possibility is entirely plausible.
Click to expand...
I tend to fell like Buckeye05 said that very skinny suction vorticies can cause a large vehicle to be lofted a great distance but may leave only high-end EF3 or low-end EF4 damage to homes.
 
pohnpei said:
I believe that based on Connell Miller's method, far more tornadoes than those discussed above could be included in the EF5 discussion list. Note that his cases include the 2020 Scarth MB tornado, which threw an SUV 30-50 meters away, yielding a median wind speed of 119 m/s through the Monte Carlo method—the same as the wind speed calculated for the Enderlin tornado. I can think of hundreds of similar cases, as throwing vehicles 50-100 meters is not uncommon and is not exclusive to EF4+ tornadoes.
View attachment 47035

However, it’s also worth noting that the 2023 Dibsbury AB tornado threw a 9.8-ton combine harvester approximately 80-100 meters, resulting in a wind speed of 119 m/s via the Monte Carlo method—identical to the Enderlin tornado. Yet, the damage to nearby houses only corresponded to a 170 mph (76 m/s) wind speed, which seems contradictory.
View attachment 47034
View attachment 47036
View attachment 47037

There are two possible explanations for this. First, as many have already pointed out, this method only considers horizontal wind speed, and the lift coefficient accounts solely for the Bernoulli effect generated by strong horizontal winds. In reality, tornadoes have significant vertical wind speeds, which could lead to an overestimation of wind speeds using this method. However, the EF scale does not define vertical wind speeds for tornadoes, so this method aligns well with the EF scale’s framework.

The second possibility is that the wind speed corresponding to the house destruction was underestimated. In fact, calculating the wind speed required to destroy a house is more challenging than calculating the wind needed to throw an object, as a house is a composite structure rather than a single solid object. Therefore, this possibility is entirely plausible.
Click to expand...
Sub vortices are also in play. Sharp damage gradients and all that.
 
Aaron Rider said:
I've seen some references here to impressive lofting by the Canton, TX tornado of 4/29/2017.

A few questions, though:

WHICH Canton tornado was that? I often refer to these two monsters as "Canton" and "Eustace" with the latter referring to the EF4. I remember that the significant tornado thread had some indications that both had significant contextual damage and both could have been EF4, with at least one being a plausible EF5 contender. Can anyone share more?
Click to expand...
I think the plausible EF5 contender was the Canton EF3. There’s been images posted, but it produced significant scouring, tree debarking, and intense mangling of vehicles that easily point to an EF4+ tornado.
 
tornado examiner said:
I'm still in disbelief that the EF5 drought was ultimately broken by a random night time wedge in the northern plains. That hit a few farm steads and a train.
Reminds me alot of the old random tornadoes rated F4-F5 that had similar rural impacts.
Click to expand...
Hey, crazier things have happened in the tornado world. The May 18, 1995 Jessamine County, KY tornado was confirmed and given an F2 rating... 22 years after it happened.
 
tornado examiner said:
I'm still very intrigued by the fact that nws grand forks could also be getting ready to confirm an upgrade too the spiritwood tornado to EF4 based on the same research put into enderlin. No direct confirmation of that, but it could be happening.
Click to expand...
If so, thats a 7th EF-4.

That'd make 8 confirmed violent tornadoes in a year. The last year to have atleast 8 or more EF-4 to EF-5 tornadoes would be THAT year.
 
Aaron Rider said:
I've seen some references here to impressive lofting by the Canton, TX tornado of 4/29/2017.

A few questions, though:

WHICH Canton tornado was that? I often refer to these two monsters as "Canton" and "Eustace" with the latter referring to the EF4. I remember that the significant tornado thread had some indications that both had significant contextual damage and both could have been EF4, with at least one being a plausible EF5 contender. Can anyone share more?
Click to expand...
canton EF3 threw vehicles more then 700+ meters , honestly i find the EF3 to be stronger then the EF4 and should be looked for high end EF4 damage.
 
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