2020 Political Thread (6 Viewers)


JayF

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Then why didn’t you counter with that point instead of making absurd false claims about what he posted?

If I made a false statement I apologize. And I did later on. But to be honest, I let emotion take over my responses instead of using facts. That is my bad and I have had time to think about my responses and they would be much different this morning. I spent all that time making a very detailed post and it made me angry that he only keyed in on one word instead of the entire body of evidence.
 

Evan

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I've read all or part of 18 transcripts that were released.

Both Lewandowski transcripts
Boris Epshteyn
Felix Sater
Donald Trump Jr.
Hope Hicks
Ike Kaveladze
James Clapper
Both Bannon transcripts
Matthew Tait
Marc Elias
Rhona Graff
Jeff Sessions
Michael Cohen
Michael Caputo
Roger Stone
Brad Parscale

I started on May 7th at 7:18pm. I'd be glad to discuss anything in the transcripts I've read, and I'm open to reading additional transcripts (I plan to anyway). Obviously I do this on my own time outside of work hours, so I'm generally available after 5pm and the transcripts are part of my nightly reading materials.

I'll go back and read the Clapper transcript again. Although I've read a number of the transcripts word for word, others I've skimmed or have skipped irrelevant or redundant parts.
 

Evan

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I guess I don't see the contradiction between the three segments of Clapper's transcript that you posted.

One question had to do with the credibility of the electoral process. I think Putin absolutely succeeded in undermining the credibility of the electoral process. Trump himself made allegations that the electoral process was "rigged" and that also contributed to a belief by some Republicans that the electoral process was flawed. He stated on several occasions that "millions of people" voted twice in California, or that "millions" of illegal immigrants voted in California and other states. Those claims have never been proven.

We know that Russian disinformation campaigns frequently highlighted Trump's pre-election statements that the election "is rigged" and after the election those disinfo campaigns frequently amplified Trump's claims that millions of illegal ballots were cast. Does that not undermine the credibility of the election process?

I'd also point out the hard evidence we have that the Russians used a variety of social media and on-the-ground organizing tactics to try to suppress the votes of certain electoral groups. Additionally, would you not agree that the Russian hacking of the voter registration systems of multiple states (even though there's no proof data was changed or deleted) impacting the credibility of the election process?

I don't know about state processes, but if a system is hacked in my industry, we're required to immediately report that incident to the DoD, provide DoD with an untouched forensic image, and the assumption is that data was exfiltrated or modified until explicitly proven otherwise (in some cases, logging, auditing, and backups aren't enough to prove data integrity). DoD would absolutely consider such a system to have been compromised, and would definitely have major credibility concerns about the integrity of related data and systems.

What about the "Resistance" Democrats who believe the Russians actually changed votes/data and are convinced that Russia's efforts stole the election from Hillary. Is that not an example of undermining the credibility of the election process?

Clapper later says they didn't have any evidence the Russians changed votes. I don't see how that is inconsistent with the other statement that Putin undermined the credibility of electoral processes. In 2020, there are still millions of Americans who believe the electoral process was tainted irrespective of whether or not vote tallies were changed. I thought it was well-known that there was no evidence that vote systems had tallies or info changed. Mueller's report also said that well before the transcripts were released.

I guess the confusing/confounding part to me is why we would expect Clapper, Rice, or any of the Obama Admin people to have had explicit evidence of the Trump campaign's activities (or lack thereof) with Russia. I believe the vast majority of investigatory steps, interviews, review, and the investigations themselves came after Trump was sworn in. Those individuals wouldn't have any evidence or information past the point at which they left the government.
 

Evan

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Some general comments as it pertains to the transcripts I read:

I thought Don Jr. came off as earnest and willing to answer almost every question he was asked. His explanation of things largely made sense to me. I won't say I believe every answer he gave, but I thought he was one of the better performing witnesses and was rather convincing. He also respected the committee and their investigation. That, or he's a hell of an actor.

My already low opinion of Corey Lewandowski sank even further. He's a total scumbag and deserving of scorn. He was evasive, played games, and was disrespectful throughout the proceeding.

Wasn't impressed with Rhona Graff. She virtually claimed to have seen nothing, heard nothing, and knew nothing even though she was in the inner sanctum.

Matthew Tait has a very interesting and intriguing story to tell. His transcript is worth a read.

Some of the interviews were a total waste of time.
 

JayF

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I guess I don't see the contradiction between the three segments of Clapper's transcript that you posted.

One question had to do with the credibility of the electoral process. I think Putin absolutely succeeded in undermining the credibility of the electoral process. Trump himself made allegations that the electoral process was "rigged" and that also contributed to a belief by some Republicans that the electoral process was flawed. He stated on several occasions that "millions of people" voted twice in California, or that "millions" of illegal immigrants voted in California and other states. Those claims have never been proven.

We know that Russian disinformation campaigns frequently highlighted Trump's pre-election statements that the election "is rigged" and after the election those disinfo campaigns frequently amplified Trump's claims that millions of illegal ballots were cast. Does that not undermine the credibility of the election process?

I'd also point out the hard evidence we have that the Russians used a variety of social media and on-the-ground organizing tactics to try to suppress the votes of certain electoral groups. Additionally, would you not agree that the Russian hacking of the voter registration systems of multiple states (even though there's no proof data was changed or deleted) impacting the credibility of the election process?

I don't know about state processes, but if a system is hacked in my industry, we're required to immediately report that incident to the DoD, provide DoD with an untouched forensic image, and the assumption is that data was exfiltrated or modified until explicitly proven otherwise (in some cases, logging, auditing, and backups aren't enough to prove data integrity). DoD would absolutely consider such a system to have been compromised, and would definitely have major credibility concerns about the integrity of related data and systems.

What about the "Resistance" Democrats who believe the Russians actually changed votes/data and are convinced that Russia's efforts stole the election from Hillary. Is that not an example of undermining the credibility of the election process?

Clapper later says they didn't have any evidence the Russians changed votes. I don't see how that is inconsistent with the other statement that Putin undermined the credibility of electoral processes. In 2020, there are still millions of Americans who believe the electoral process was tainted irrespective of whether or not vote tallies were changed. I thought it was well-known that there was no evidence that vote systems had tallies or info changed. Mueller's report also said that well before the transcripts were released.

I guess the confusing/confounding part to me is why we would expect Clapper, Rice, or any of the Obama Admin people to have had explicit evidence of the Trump campaign's activities (or lack thereof) with Russia. I believe the vast majority of investigatory steps, interviews, review, and the investigations themselves came after Trump was sworn in. Those individuals wouldn't have any evidence or information past the point at which they left the government.

Yes, I do think that the Russians interfered with the elections. I do no think there is a person in the United States who would disagree with that statement. I do not think they had a favorite one way or another between Hillary or Donald, however, I do think they would have preferred Hillary, but that is my opinion and have no real way of proving it given the facts. I also believe that the intent that no matter who won the election was to create doubt, turmoil, and millions of dollars of wasted investigations and time.

So when I say that the Trump Campaign did not collude with the Russians, it is purely that the Trump campaign did not do anything or take any actions with the Russians in an attempt to steal the election. I do not think the Clinton campaign colluded with Russia in an attempt to steal the election. I believe Russia actually succeeded in what they wanted to do. We are all now suspect of the electoral process. We are divided and weakened and are really on edge about the 2020 election process.

Do you believe that Russia is already working in the background to further undermine the credibility of the electoral process for 2020? Do you think the Russians would benefit from either a Trump or a Biden win?
 

gangstonc

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Nobody has been able to tell me why Trump said his campaign didn’t have contact with Russians, when the truth is there were over 100 contacts.

Also, the republican led senate report says the Russians helped Trump. That’s where all the evidence points
 

JayF

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Nobody has been able to tell me why Trump said his campaign didn’t have contact with Russians, when the truth is there were over 100 contacts.

Also, the republican led senate report says the Russians helped Trump. That’s where all the evidence points

Show me this evidence using the newfound information. If you go back to the Mueller report or other documents, they have been outdated by the transcripts.
 

gangstonc

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Show me this evidence using the newfound information. If you go back to the Mueller report or other documents, they have been outdated by the transcripts.
They have not. The senate report used the transcripts. So did the Mueller report. There is no new info in there.
 

JayF

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They have not. The senate report used the transcripts. So did the Mueller report. There is no new info in there.
The Senate Report (Adam Schiff) lied in these reports. The Transcripts provide a bigger picture and better information. The Mueller report didn't accurately reflect the information in the transcripts. If you say otherwise, in my opinion, you have your eyes wide shut.
 

gangstonc

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The Senate Report (Adam Schiff) lied in these reports. The Transcripts provide a bigger picture and better information. The Mueller report didn't accurately reflect the information in the transcripts. If you say otherwise, in my opinion, you have your eyes wide shut.
(Richard Burr). Adam Schiff is not on the committee.
 

JayF

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(Richard Burr). Adam Schiff is not on the committee.
My bad. I am thinking of two different reports. Yes, I agree that the Russians interfered with the election.

So lets do this in small sections to see where we agree and disagree.

Do you believe that the Russians Interfered with the Elections?
 

gangstonc

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Why do you believe that the Russians wanted to make the election of the U.S. President to be suspect in the minds of half of the population?
They want to sow discord among the American people and to have the Trump campaign ease economic restrictions on Russia.

“President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the U.S. presidential election. Russia's goals were to undermine public faith in the U.S. democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.”
 

JayF

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They want to sow discord among the American people and to have the Trump campaign ease economic restrictions on Russia.

“President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the U.S. presidential election. Russia's goals were to undermine public faith in the U.S. democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.”

So would you say they succeeded in creating discord among the American People? Would you say Trump eased Economic restrictions on Russia?
 

gangstonc

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So would you say they succeeded in creating discord among the American People? Would you say Trump eased Economic restrictions on Russia?
Yes. Yes.


 

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