Significant Tornado Events

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I wasn't trying to say that either. I'm literally just saying that it's hard to find ground level photos of homes that sustained actual EF5 damage.

Most homes in the south are poorly constructed; it's likely difficult to find EF5 damage to most homes in the Dixie region. Yeah, I think what happened with Hackleburg was people were eager to apply the EF5 rating as the scale was still new and there had only been 2 EF5s previously (Greensburg and Parkersburg) so the survey team likely was jumping at the opportunity. Yeah, several tornadoes from this day likely would be ranked way differently today.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

On today's episode of "Was Tuscaloosa an EF5?":

At least one slab-built home and a two story building were completely swept away in Alberta City, Tuscaloosa, near Alberta Elementary School. Don't know the construction info off hand, but the contextual damage in this part of Tuscaloosa was likely stronger than anywhere else in the city, with significant ground scouring noted and concrete porches torn from residences and shattered.

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Some rural homes swept away
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Feet into Birmingham city limits, a large warehouse was practically vaporized:
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I've been reading the TornadoTalk article on this thing and it's amazing how violent it was between Tuscaloosa and Birmingham, the sheer amount of forest it downed is on par with Hackleburg at points. And yeah, there was 1 or 2 houses in rural, remote areas that the survey teams likely missed due to their locations and were probably EF5 damage. I'll have to read the section of the article again.
Yeah, Alberta City was definitely near-EF5 at the very least, the warehouse damage is crazy although warehouses usually don't stand up to much wind anyways.

 

[TH2002]

Most homes in the south are poorly constructed; it's likely difficult to find EF5 damage to most homes in the Dixie region. Yeah, I think what happened with Hackleburg was people were eager to apply the EF5 rating as the scale was still new and there had only been 2 EF5s previously (Greensburg and Parkersburg) so the survey team likely was jumping at the opportunity. Yeah, several tornadoes from this day likely would be ranked way differently today.

I think part of it is that the EF scale is just too stringent as it is currently applied, and I admit that gets to my head sometimes lol. Hopefully the update does make the scale less stringent however.

With that said, I guess I should have mentioned that there is certainly no shortage of incredible damage photos from Hackleburg, if you're going to speak in terms of contextual damage and some of the larger structures it hit.

 

[pohnpei]

I wasn't trying to say that either. I'm literally just saying that it's hard to find ground level photos of homes that sustained actual EF5 damage.

I think there's a possibility that Hackleburg won't be rated EF5 in these days due to poor construction or other reasons like tree standing theory. But It just showed the problem of EF scale. Tornados like Hackleburg can't be rated EF5 would be a big joke no matter what criteria they have.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I think there's a possibility that Hackleburg won't be rated EF5 in these days due to poor construction or other reasons like tree standing theory. But It just showed the problem of EF scale. Tornados like Hackleburg can't be rated EF5 would be a big joke no matter what criteria they have.

The scary thing is that Smithville would likely not be rated EF5 either; the scale's gotten way too strict at this point (as so many discussions have already stated lol).

 

[TH2002]

I think there's a possibility that Hackleburg won't be rated EF5 in these days due to poor construction or other reasons like tree standing theory. But It just showed the problem of EF scale. Tornados like Hackleburg can't be rated EF5 would be a big joke no matter what criteria they have.

In some ways Hackleburg was essentially the Mayfield of its day; no doubt Hackleburg was an EF5 and the rating was well deserved. But with the way the scale is currently applied I do have to say that there's no way it would get that rating today, and Mayfield provides credence to that.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

In some ways Hackleburg was essentially the Mayfield of its day; no doubt Hackleburg was an EF5 and the rating was well deserved. But with the way the scale is currently applied I do have to say that there's no way it would get that rating today, and Mayfield provides credence to that.

I still haven't looked at enough Mayfield pics to fully ascertain its intensity; where were the areas it most likely hit EF5 intensity?

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

I still haven't looked at enough Mayfield pics to fully ascertain its intensity; where were the areas it most likely hit EF5 intensity?

Bremen.

 

[TH2002]

I still haven't looked at enough Mayfield pics to fully ascertain its intensity; where were the areas it most likely hit EF5 intensity?

I still stand by my belief that it hit the lower end of EF5 intensity in Cambridge Shores, where multiple anchor bolted homes were swept away and severe debarking of trees was noted in some spots. I think it arguably hit EF5 in Mayfield itself as well, given multi-story brick buildings and the candle factory were completely leveled, vehicles were thrown and mangled, and trees were debarked. The "trench scouring" that occurred northeast of Cayce definitely made me wonder as well.

 

[pohnpei]

In some ways Hackleburg was essentially the Mayfield of its day; no doubt Hackleburg was an EF5 and the rating was well deserved. But with the way the scale is currently applied I do have to say that there's no way it would get that rating today, and Mayfield provides credence to that.

The difference here is Hackleburg do have well constructed house with standard construction like the one East of Phil Campbell and the contextual damage was even more extreme for Hackleburg. Many surveyors literally shocked by the damage they seen. But certainly I'm not sure If these can be enough for an EF5 rating in today.

 

[pohnpei]

I think there's a big crevice between reality and the system so sometimes things can be confusing and controversial. If we are talking about was this tornado have 200mph winds at peak intensity then for almost all tornados that can be included in this topic, the answer is Yes certainly.

Research showed that at least 20% of supercell tornados had EF4/5 level winds at times despite of the various underestimation factors of DOW measurement. There's were undisputed facts. It would be more easier for a tornado in Dixie to reach when tornados already moving at near 60mph. You only need 140mph rotational winds to do that which is not particularly hard for a violent tornado.

But If you ask was this tornado can be rated EF5 today, then answer almost always would be no, even for those strongest tornados. Poor construction, tree standing, debris hitting, slow moving, there will almost always have a reason or namely excuse.

 

[TH2002]

I think there's a big crevice between reality and the system so sometimes things can be confusing and controversial. If we are talking about was this tornado have 200mph winds at peak intensity then for almost all tornados that can be included in this topic, the answer is Yes certainly.

Research showed that at least 20% of supercell tornados had EF4/5 level winds at times despite of the various underestimation factors of DOW measurement. There's were undisputed facts. It would be more easier for a tornado in Dixie to reach when tornados already moving at near 60mph. You only need 140mph rotational winds to do that which is not particularly hard for a violent tornado.

But If you ask was this tornado can be rated EF5 today, then answer almost always would be no, even for those strongest tornados. Poor construction, tree standing, debris hitting, slow moving, there will almost always have a reason or namely excuse.

Poor construction CAN be a valid reason in many cases, given how poorly many US homes are built, though I do believe it is often abused (*cough cough* Vilonia)

The other reasons can be valid too in rarer situations, though it's usually BS, to put it frankly.

 

[buckeye05]

I still haven't looked at enough Mayfield pics to fully ascertain its intensity; where were the areas it most likely hit EF5 intensity?

Extreme contextual damage suggests it was at its most violent in Bremen, and I'm pretty confident that EF5 level winds occurred there despite the poor quality construction. As TH2002 mentioned, I'd say an argument for marginal EF5 can be made for the damage in Cambridge Shores since the homes there were actually pretty well-built and anchored, but besides the severe debarking, there just wasn't much in the way of extreme contextual evidence in Cambridge Shores to put it solidly within the EF5 criteria there imo. At the very least, the wind speed estimate of 170 MPH at that location was certainly too low.

 

[TH2002]

Just came across this photo from Cambridge Shores I hadn't seen before, actually looks like some pretty high-end vehicle damage did occur here:

 

[tornado examiner]

im still under the opinion that the tornado was likely a messy multi vortex in some area's. specially over mayfield. a very powerful multivortex though. evidense is that fact that the damage swath in mayfield was highly randomised and sporatic. tree damage wasnt consistent. and there were buildings standing in the core path. how many would agree with that?

I still stand by my belief that it hit the lower end of EF5 intensity in Cambridge Shores, where multiple anchor bolted homes were swept away and severe debarking of trees was noted in some spots. I think it arguably hit EF5 in Mayfield itself as well, given multi-story brick buildings and the candle factory were completely leveled, vehicles were thrown and mangled, and trees were debarked. The "trench scouring" that occurred northeast of Cayce definitely made me wonder as well.

 

[Sawmaster]

But If you ask was this tornado can be rated EF5 today, then answer almost always would be no, even for those strongest tornados. Poor construction, tree standing, debris hitting, slow moving, there will almost always have a reason or namely excuse.

This exactly and that last word exactly too. It's as if they're not looking to assign a rating, but looking for any tiny reason to not assign one.

Cambridge Shore with the Mayfield tornado had swept-away homes properly anchor-bolted with many instances of wall plates being gone, which would imply that they were well-attached to the studs, but one group of those homes were lumped together and described as something like "not well constructed with end-nailed studs". And with Hackleburg there was the one "exceptionally well-built home" swept away. I'm given to understand it had extra strapping done in the wall and roof structure and extra anchor-bolting because it was custom-built as a new home after the owners previous home elsewhere was destroyed in a tornado and they didn't want that to happen again. And the poured-concrete walk-out basement wall of the house on the corner hill which was blown away, apparently without impact damage, adjacent to asphalt removal and severe ground scouring.

If you look long enough and hard enough, you can always find a reason to not do something, and if nobody has the authority to scrutinize your decisions there's a natural human tendency to allow personal beliefs and biases to enter into your decisions. EF-5's are now once-in-a-lifetime events if even that frequent, and will only be given where the destruction is so overwhelming that nobody would believe anything less.

Phil

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Extreme contextual damage suggests it was at its most violent in Bremen, and I'm pretty confident that EF5 level winds occurred there despite the poor quality construction. As TH2002 mentioned, I'd say an argument for marginal EF5 can be made for the damage in Cambridge Shores since the homes there were actually pretty well-built and anchored, but besides the severe debarking, there just wasn't much in the way of extreme contextual evidence in Cambridge Shores to put it solidly within the EF5 criteria there imo. At the very least, the wind speed estimate of 170 MPH at that location was certainly too low.

I don’t think there was any EF5 structural damage in Cambridge Shores as while homes were swept away, almost all of the better built ones had the subflooring still remaining.

 

[buckeye05]

I don’t think there was any EF5 structural damage in Cambridge Shores as while homes were swept away, almost all of the better built ones had the subflooring still remaining.

Overall, I personally don’t either, I’m just saying one could make that argument, as the statement that the most well-built houses were left with their subfloors attached isn’t exactly true. There was at least one large lakeshore home there on a poured concrete basement foundation that was left with its basement exposed and the anchor bolts severely bent, and is clearly visible on the DAT.

Even if it was just one and the rest had their subfloors attached, it’d still be noteworthy, but there were a couple more that sustained removal of anchored subflooring in that general area.

With all that said, I’d still call Cambridge Shores high-end EF4. Still not enough extreme contextual evidence there. But I don’t agree with the 170 MPH wind speed estimate that was applied there, that’s for sure.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

While we’re on the topic of ratings and such I’ve always believed the 2013 Washington tornado had EF5 potential during its passage through the city.

This photo shows a mangled car out in a field with some intense vegetation damage and an obliterated subdivision.

Some pretty incredible debris granulation

Intense tree damage next to a large home that was swept away

This low lying shrub was completely stripped next to a row of homes that were leveled.

A very intense streak of wind rowing of debris.

A little better quality of the wind rowing.

Aerial showing entire rows of two story homes completely swept away.

One of many homes that were swept away.

Another swept away home

More intense damage from Washington.


I think it’s undoubtable to say had this occurred back in the 90’s it would’ve gained an F5 rating. I’m honestly more impressed by some of the damage in Washington than the 1990 Hesston tornado and 1998 Birmingham tornado to name a few.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

While we’re on the topic of ratings and such I’ve always believed the 2013 Washington tornado had EF5 potential during its passage through the city.

This photo shows a mangled car out in a field with some intense vegetation damage and an obliterated subdivision.
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Some pretty incredible debris granulation
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Intense tree damage next to a large home that was swept away
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This low lying shrub was completely stripped next to a row of homes that were leveled.
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A very intense streak of wind rowing of debris.
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A little better quality of the wind rowing.
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Aerial showing entire rows of two story homes completely swept away.
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One of many homes that were swept away.
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Another swept away home
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More intense damage from Washington.
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I think it’s undoubtable to say had this occurred back in the 90’s it would’ve gained an F5 rating. I’m honestly more impressed by some of the damage in Washington than the 1990 Hesston tornado and 1998 Birmingham tornado to name a few.

Yeah, I think it was CheeseheadSkies that mentioned EF5 was very much considered but dropped due to "political reasons".