I mean, at least it’s still an EF4, but… why?
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tornado examiner
Member
They said it should have been corrected years ago on the comment. The house in question wasn’t ever really worthy of high end EF4 by the looks of it I guess.
Aaron Rider
Member
I'm not impressed by this.
Shawnee was very violent
Some areas of Moore '13 were legitimately on par with Jarrell or Bridge Creek, which is quite literally as bad as it gets.
Speaking of the 2013 outbreak sequence, I've got these saved as the Bethel Acres/Shawnee EF4 from the previous day, but I haven't really done much digging on that yet so I'm not 100% sure. Wish I'd remembered to note where they came from so I could check.
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Speaking of the 2013 outbreak sequence, I've got these saved as the Bethel Acres/Shawnee EF4 from the previous day, but I haven't really done much digging on that yet so I'm not 100% sure. Wish I'd remembered to note where they came from so I could check.
tornado examiner
Member
Yea I agree. but the DI rated 190mph was over-rated according to NWS Norman so they changed it. 13 years after the fact…I'm not impressed by this.
Shawnee was very violent
Some areas of Moore '13 were legitimately on par with Jarrell or Bridge Creek, which is quite literally as bad as it gets.
Speaking of the 2013 outbreak sequence, I've got these saved as the Bethel Acres/Shawnee EF4 from the previous day, but I haven't really done much digging on that yet so I'm not 100% sure. Wish I'd remembered to note where they came from so I could check.
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I Wonder what else they plan on changing.
slenker
Member
Y'know what else needs to be changed 12+ years after the fact due to a home not getting the rating it deserves? Vilonia.
If Shawnee is lowered by 15mph, that one should be raised by 15mph
WeathermanLeprechaun
Member
@Central Ohio Wx has contacted many offices in the SE regarding undocumented strong tornadoes or different events and they always said that there was a strict policy for no changes in the database and no downgrades nor upgrades.
Makes me wonder what odd double standard this one has for Shawnee, and is there specific regional rules? If not then this is just straight up bending the rules from NWS Norman. Really odd decision. If that gets downgraded, upgrade Vilonia.
Regardless of Enderlin being rated as it was, it's important to note that NTP played a part in that. It seems like offices are still the same with picky standards. The fact the first EF5 in 12 years needed some input from across the border convinces me that Enderlin was just a one off. No wave of change or thinking from offices. The EF scale remains as problematic and offices contradicting so called "policies" doesn't make it any better.
Makes me wonder what odd double standard this one has for Shawnee, and is there specific regional rules? If not then this is just straight up bending the rules from NWS Norman. Really odd decision. If that gets downgraded, upgrade Vilonia.
Regardless of Enderlin being rated as it was, it's important to note that NTP played a part in that. It seems like offices are still the same with picky standards. The fact the first EF5 in 12 years needed some input from across the border convinces me that Enderlin was just a one off. No wave of change or thinking from offices. The EF scale remains as problematic and offices contradicting so called "policies" doesn't make it any better.
Ivanthetornadoenthusiast
Member
Wasn't the first quoted post actually from Moore 5/20/2013?I'm not impressed by this.
Shawnee was very violent
Some areas of Moore '13 were legitimately on par with Jarrell or Bridge Creek, which is quite literally as bad as it gets.
Speaking of the 2013 outbreak sequence, I've got these saved as the Bethel Acres/Shawnee EF4 from the previous day, but I haven't really done much digging on that yet so I'm not 100% sure. Wish I'd remembered to note where they came from so I could check.
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This just isn’t true. I can’t say too much without breaching trust of my source, but it’s a very reliable one. But anyway, I can confirm that Enderlin definitely had an impact on the train of thought in high up places in the NWS. While things are on hold for the time being, there are people with the NWS who especially after Enderlin, want to take another look at various controversial tornado ratings from years prior. While things aren’t going to change right now, the motivation is there when it comes to the desire to take another look some time in the future. The only caveat would be if this policy is long term and keeps a stranglehold on any possibility of re-assessment until people just give up/move on. Anyway, that’s all I can say for now.
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Also unrelated, but the Effingham, IL tornado provided ample examples of tree stubbing, and even low-end debarking occurring within the immediate vicinity of EF3, and even EF2 range structural damage. This isn’t typical, but it can happen. Now this isn’t the kind of debarking that is caused by high velocity debris or particulate. It more has to with the close proximity of trees to damaged/destroyed structures. As the structures come apart, the trees are within such close range, they are subject to a particularly concentrated blizzard of plywood, lumber, and other construction materials. The trees in the third pic had an entire detached garage (that’s not a house slab don’t worry) thrown into it. Essentially, this type of debarking is more representative of close range blunt force impacts than it is actual wind damage. Debarking that occurs farther away from structures or in rural areas is a whole different story, and arguably a different phenomenon.
(Nice pun)
But also talk is incredibly cheap in this instance, especially when it isn't coming from anyone in a position of authority to actually do anything. If offices are ready and willing to review old ratings, but aren't being allowed to, that's a leadership issue. What needs to happen to turn this motivation into real world action before it fades away? How do we continue to move the needle just a little bit further?
If NWS Norman doesn't take this same energy and upgrade Goldsby and Chickasha I'm finna crash out
Kds86z
Member
That’s also true unfortunately, and I don’t really have a good answer. Good intentions don’t translate to good actions as long as leadership creates an obstacle. I do find it reassuring though that the intentions are at least there though, and it’s not just an all across the board problem. I’m holding on to hope that the policy barring records changes is a temporary one.
Plus speaking of NWS Norman, I find it really cool that the highest rated DI from Enid was a barely anchored old farmhouse. That was an entirely context based rating decision there that also utilized new data on tree damage to assist in the upgrade. A more by the book office could just say “old poorly anchored farmhouse, EF3. Next!” Sure it’s just one survey, and sure I would have personally gone with 190 MPH overall, but it does set a good precedent for context based upgrades. I’ve always said if you can use context to downgrade, you sure as heck better be able to use it to upgrade. It’s a little victory, but I’ll take it.
Kds86z
Member
@buckeye05 did you see Effingham from yesterday was rated EF3 off tree damage?
I haven’t delved into that survey as I’ve had a busy day, but that’s not surprising. Plenty of stubbing and some debarking too. I’m a big proponent of using trees and vegetation as basis for EF3+ ratings in general.
But then we have NWS Indianapolis going with their dreaded go-to high-end EF2 rating for a tornado that caused a swath of pretty incredible forest damage. Some offices are ahead of the curve when it comes to rating tree damage, while others are still behind unfortunately.
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Wait where did you hear this actually? I'm looking and I'm only seeing NWS Lincoln ratings for the Charleston and Pawnee tornadoes (EF2 and EF0). Nothing on the DAT either.
Kds86z
Member
And I also heard from a user here. Was on DAT but taken down @buckeye05
Attachments
Interesting. I'm not seeing those damage points currently.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Okay yes I know I said I'd be off for a while but just so y'know...
Two EF3, 140-mph DIs were on DAT based off tree damage. They seemingly removed them an hour or two ago for some reason, but the tornado currently does stand as an EF3. Waiting for a PNS.