Hi all, this is very important if you're looking for improvement to one of the official tornado databases.
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Significant Tornado Events
- Thread starter locomusic01
- Start date
Hi all, this is very important if you're looking for improvement to one of the official tornado databases.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I can't see the embed, what is it?
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Nevermind, I see it now. If anyone decides to reach out please also suggest adding a twelfth death to the 2007 Greensburg tor's information, as it's currently 11 while the death toll was 12.
Do we have an official source for this that is unambiguously confirming this 12th fatality from the Greensburg tornado (and not lumping other deaths from the same supercell together)?
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Yes, most notably Ablah et. al in 2013 (six years after the event and a NIH publication) along with other news sources that have come out recently. Fatality estimagtes range from 8-14 from what I've seen but 11 is the most common (until recently) number used. After the May 2025 tornado near Greensburg numerous sources started using the 12 number.
I'll also note that while not unambiguous, 12 names are listed on Greensburg's memorial plaque to the event.
My one issue with this one is that it seems to be counting totals from regional hospitals (since the Greensburg hospital was severely damaged) and therefore may be counting deaths from outside Greensburg (Hopewell/Macksville/etc).
Central Ohio Wx
Member
The NIH publication, or other sources? The NIH one is paywalled but I can try to get a free copy if you want to look at it deeper.
I was able to read the NIH publication through my university privileges.
Speaking of the official database there is positively zero reason why the Commerce Landing MS tornado event on 2/1/1955 should continue to be undocumented in the official database. That event killed over 20 people including many children.
www.tornadotalk.com
Tornadoes in Northern MS – February 1, 1955 – Tornado Talk
www.tornadotalk.com
Western_KS_Wx
Member
The plaque has 10 names, and the museum and other databases all list 11 fatalities attributed to the Greensburg tornado. There was a person who died several months after the tornado due to a head injury, but that was attributed as the 11th fatality. May have been a typo of some sort? The only discrepancy regarding the human toll from the tornado is the injury count. From what was reported from hospitals around the state after the event, the injury count is quite a bit underestimated, with the actual toll likely being around 100, if not more.
Ok, thank you for clarification on this. We need to be vetting this information, especially fatality counts, with unambiguity if it's going to be used in the official tornado database.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
Not the concrete plaque - there was a bronze plaque set in 2008 that explicitly lists 12 names. It's inside the museum and I'm not sure whether it still exists. I take back what I said about that not being unambigious, as it reads: "On the night of May 4, 2007, the City of Greensburg Kansas was devastated by a large and powerful EF5 tornado. In a matter of a few chaotic minutes, nearly all of the city was leveled; the remainder was severely damaged. Twelve people lost their lives; hundreds more were injured".
Note that Robert Tim Buckman is listed - it's a bit iffy as to where his death occurred. This plaque was presented on May 4, 2008 by MESO, whose account of their storm chase you can read here. Note that there's some mildly-graphic imagery and victim descriptions in that pdf.
The biggest discrepancy I've seen while digging on this topic is where Tim Buckman died; I think this is where much of the amabiguity comes from. He was from Hopewell and thus is periodically cited as dying in that tornado, although he's also often listed as a Trousdale tornado victim (The Wichita Eagle) and a Macksville victim (ODMP). There's a few reports that list him as a Greensburg victim (PAI, NBC News). Note that most of these sources are immediately following the event, as more recent sources (ie The Hutchinson News) are generally paywalled.
His car was absolutely mangled and due to the low quality of most images I've been able to find it's hard to geolocate anything.
Multiple high-profile news sources have also been listing 12 fatalities lately including The Washington Post, PBS, KLC Journal, KSAL, News and Sentinel, among others. Something simply being in a database or reported by the NWS or SPC doesn't automatically make it correct; a good example is the "19" death toll from the NWS regarding the London EF4 - the 19th death was many miles south of the tornado's path and wasn't even tornadic (that I will be reporting shortly; I have zero idea why Edelman is bundled in with other tornadic victims when her death was caused by carbon monoxide poisoning closer to Jamestown). This nice graphic made by a friend and posted on the tornado's Wikipedia page puts into perspective visually how unrelated it was:
Anyways, this post is about Greensburg and not London. Partially related, but I came across this disturbing piece of media a bit ago:
The light on the bottom-left is allegedly Buckman's car before it was impacted. Note that in a February 2012 interview with Bob Hartig, Adams places his interaction with Buckman to around the Byers, Kansas area (and thus near Macksville). It's impossible to validate this interaction and it's just a claim so I don't completely trust it. Due to the conflicting information it's hard to say for certain exactly where he died and what tornado he died from (although it's likely the Macksville tornado). I guess it's true that the 12 number is ambigious, but if that's the case so are the 9, 10, and 11 tolls.
Some of the death toll estimates I've seen:
- 10: WIBW, City of Greensburg, KWCH, several other sources - almost certainly false; most sources with this number were published immediately after the event.
- 11: NWS, KSN-TV, The Wichita Eagle several others - this is the most widely-reported number for deaths.
- 12: KSAL, KWCH, Tanamachi et al. 2012*, Ablah et al. 2013 - always a possibility but less reported-on.
- 13: Paul et al. 2007 - Likely just lumping together the death toll from all tornadoes produced by the cell (13 total).
Sorry for the lengthy post. Most things involving tornadoes I'm admittedly interested in (death tolls and other graphic aspects) usually aren't discussed often due to their nature, so I rarely get to talk about them in detail. Greensburg specifically is a tornado I'm interested in, if you've read the Wikipedia page that's mostly my work.
* For some reason the .pdf is wrongly titled on ResearchGate.
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Western_KS_Wx
Member
Tim was an officer for Macksville and was out alerting rural residents of the tornadoes approaching from the south since he knew some of them may not have received warning. That’s where Shane Adams encountered him as he was on county roads warning those who lived south of Macksville. Tim eventually headed north and turned east onto Highway 50 where he got disoriented and was overtaken and subsequently fatally injured by the Macksville EF3, or the 4th wedge in the tornado family. He was killed after his cruiser was lofted off Highway 50 and into a field, no other tornado that night crossed Highway 50 other than the Macksville tornado. The sources listing his death as being caused by Greensburg, Trousdale, and Hopewell are incorrect.
Edit: Also just wanted to say good work on that article by the way!
Central Ohio Wx
Member
I did see that, thanks for clarifying. Right after you responded I (without realizing you had quoted my post, lol) edited my message to include a list of sources regarding fatality counts. Outside of the plaque, most sources listing 12 don't list who the 12 were, which still leaves open the possibility. If I remember correctly, hasn't it been stated that the Trousdale EF3 flipped a separate patrol car? Or was that just misreporting on Buckman?
Edit: Thanks, I put about ~9 months of researching and source scouring into that article with about ~630 edits made in total. I wasted way more time than I should have on it, that's for sure!
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Western_KS_Wx
Member
I’m pretty positive that was just another error from a source. I’ve also encountered erroneous claims that the Trousdale tornado caused a fatality or that the Hopewell tornado was the one who killed officer Buckman, but they were the result of misinformation being spread immediately after the event.
Central Ohio Wx
Member
The Hopewell tornado does have a directly-recorded fatality (Alex Giles) but even then his death has been reported as being caused by Greensburg, although that's likely an error.
Western_KS_Wx
Member
Yeah Alex Giles was killed on his farm to the south-southwest of Hopewell. Here’s a fatality map I’ve got from the event. I haven’t been able to locate Sarah Tackett, it states she died in an assisted living center but the only facility I know of in Greensburg was on the far western side of the circulation. The rest of the locations are all accurate.
On the topic of maps, I’ve been working on a EF-rating map on every structure impacted by the Greensburg tornado based on extensive aerial and ground images I’ve received. It’s not 100% complete, but it’s pretty close. Here’s a few screenshots of some locations in town.
Overall, there are 1,219 points plotted so far, not including contextual non-DI’s. Several revisions still need to be made and I found myself going back and reviewing/making changes to DI’s frequently.
Kds86z
Member
Nice work!!!
Central Ohio Wx
Member
WOW, amazing work!! If you had to pick one specific point of damage, which would you say was the most intense? And would you rank it among the strongest ever?
Western_KS_Wx
Member
Appreciate it!
As for a specific point of damage, that’s a good question. Some things I’m most impressed by contextually to start are definitely the multi-ton steel tanks almost certainly being blown 7 miles and landing in various locations throughout the town. Then there’s the vehicles being blown hundreds of yards, some being stripped to the chassis or ripped in half. There was a pickup truck that landed in someone’s living room that was crushed into a ball no more than a few feet across, and another one that was lodged into the elementary school’s cafeteria. Most impressively, co-op workers told stories that reportedly there were 2 car bumpers 120 feet up on the grain elevator, and that another one left blue paint skid marks 40 feet up from that. Manhole and storm drain covers were removed, and I identified 2 seperate areas where the railroad tracks were bent. The tree and vegetation damage near the lake was also extraordinary to say the least, and is up there with some of the most extreme documented IMO.
Structurally, the damage to the high school obviously sticks out, particularly to the south wing of the school which was totally leveled to the ground in some spots. That section of the school was very well built, and featured “well-built walls that included two layers of brick and mortar, one layer of concrete masonry blocks and mortar, as well as more than 19 mm of plaster on the inside wall,” which lead the initial QRT to rate it EF5.
Elsewhere, the destruction of entire neighborhoods on the north side of town which featured several homes swept cleanly away, including a large, brick Mennonite church.
There was also a large, anchored RV business a few stories tall that was largely swept away.
Then there’s the damage to this church that had been converted to a home that was quite impressive.
I also go into detail with several aerials and additional photos of extreme damage in this post and further in the same thread. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/post-162878
To answer your last question, yes I do believe it’s firmly in the list of strongest tornadoes ever documented.