Wow - and after all that, Zelenskyy's still able to be classy.
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2025 Political Thread
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Truly unfortunate to see that people are somehow defending this. I suppose we're now Russia's puppet. What in the F*** did we just witness?
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He looks like me at the family reunion.
Anti Marine Layer
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I'd say it's not the role of United States government to take care of the entire planet using our tax money. They'll just continue to run up the debt. As one person said "Socialism works fine until the government runs out of other people's money".
But the left cares about illegal immigrants more than our own citizens and wants their tax dollars to pay for transgender surgeries of illegal immigrants in prison and teaching people around the world that there are 45300 genders.
A lot of hyperbole and hot takes all over the internet about this. My more nuanced view is the biggest issue with this exchange is that it happened in front of the cameras and in public.
History is littered with tense negotiations, heated discussions amongst allies, and yes, even amongst allies with a power imbalance where the greater power forces terms on the lesser power to accept. Biden famously snapped at Zelensky, but it was in private.
I can only think of LBJ screaming at De Gaulle of France, Churchill storming out of a meeting with FDR and Stalin, and even Margaret Thatcher blasting the Germans and Helmut Kohl in private because she didn’t trust the Germans 40 years after WW2. Reagan’s and Kissinger’s own diaries detail word by word their tense meetings.
These are how these things play out in private and always have throughout history, but not in public. There were many cardinal sins committed of diplomacy on so many levels. Unity in public, frank discussion in private.
History is littered with tense negotiations, heated discussions amongst allies, and yes, even amongst allies with a power imbalance where the greater power forces terms on the lesser power to accept. Biden famously snapped at Zelensky, but it was in private.
I can only think of LBJ screaming at De Gaulle of France, Churchill storming out of a meeting with FDR and Stalin, and even Margaret Thatcher blasting the Germans and Helmut Kohl in private because she didn’t trust the Germans 40 years after WW2. Reagan’s and Kissinger’s own diaries detail word by word their tense meetings.
These are how these things play out in private and always have throughout history, but not in public. There were many cardinal sins committed of diplomacy on so many levels. Unity in public, frank discussion in private.
Anti Marine Layer
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Is DOGE negativity being overhyped by the Dems?
AMAC Newsline columnist Andrew Shirley pointed out an interesting bit of forgotten history about Bill Clinton’s reduction of the federal workforce. It seems Bill Clinton made even more extreme cuts to the federal workforce during his seco...
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Let me just say that I honestly don't care for Zelensky - in my view, he's a welfare queen and sees the US as an infinite piggy bank. At the same time, does that mean he deserved to be treated the way he was at the Oval Office meeting? No.
I for one am actually glad US-Russia relations are improving - but that doesn't mean the Trump administration has to copycat Putin's by seeing Zelensky as nothing more than a punching bag.
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It was an excrement show, all 3 of them. He was probably rethinking his decision at that moment.
Russia is the aggressor - what Trump said recently was stupid - but I'd prefer not to send another penny to Ukraine.
I totally disagree. Ukraine has been one of the best investments of US taxpayer dollars in decades, IMO - no boots on the ground and the almost complete degradation of one of the largest conventional armies ever assembled that was our greatest geopolitical foe - all by sending Ukraine (mostly) our almost outdated stuff while we replace it with newer versions. The vast majority of the "money for Ukraine" has been spent here - a ton of it in Huntsville and Anniston.
TornadoFan
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Great to see that Zelenskyy didn't back down even while being shouted at by two schoolyard bullies. Zelenskyy is a true leader. Not this orange buffoon.
Not bootlicker, co-conspirator, I suspect. Putin probably is a billionaire, too, though he's currently ineligible to openly buy a Trump gold card. His associates must be pretty well off, as well.
The rest of us? Just little squares on the Risk board, in the very much miscalculating eyes of the self-imagined game players.
Or we're
There are various ways to achieve what the song "Imagine" is about, but what I see going on here is about 180° from what Lennon had in mind, though it could ultimately achieve something similar, although with oceans of dark karma lurking just under the thin surface layer of passive contentedness.
I also liked the way this relatively young man
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Including a Russian press member!
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Did you say... Russian? AHH! I'M TRANSFORMING!! AUGGHHH!!!!
Не бойся - Я не Русский шпион
Мне просто нравится Русская музыка. В данный момент, Я слушаю гимн Советского Союза. За Горбачева!!! Жаль, что у нас больше нет таких лидеров, как он.
I caught that - they then said he accidentally got in the Oval Office? That's... not a thing. One does not accidentally get in the Oval Office.
Я люблю борщ и лук. Это все что я знаю, кроме ругательст. Блин.Did you say... Russian? AHH! I'M TRANSFORMING!! AUGGHHH!!!!
Не бойся - Я не Русский шпион
Мне просто нравится Русская музыка. В данный момент, Я слушаю гимн Советского Союза. За Горбачева!!! Жаль, что у нас больше нет таких лидеров, как он.
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Evan
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I totally disagree. Ukraine has been one of the best investments of US taxpayer dollars in decades, IMO - no boots on the ground and the almost complete degradation of one of the largest conventional armies ever assembled that was our greatest geopolitical foe - all by sending Ukraine (mostly) our almost outdated stuff while we replace it with newer versions. The vast majority of the "money for Ukraine" has been spent here - a ton of it in Huntsville and Anniston.
I am normally in alignment with Mike on most political issues, and usually opposite your position, but in this case I couldn't agree more.
I was going to make a post earlier today saying a number of the same things.
We degraded the Russian military.
Gained valuable insight into next gen warfare (we were behind China/Iran on drones before the conflict) as well as detailed intelligence and actionable insights about the performance of Russian and Iranian weaponry.
Rotated out older material, weapons, and ammunition that would've eventually gone to the scrapyard. Now all those items are being modernized or replaced. DoD didn't previously have the budget for it.
The DIB (Defense Industrial Base) modernized, restarted, or initiated lines of production for numerous weapons, munitions, and logistical items. This infrastructure had become extremely decrepit and inefficient. It is why we STILL cannot outproduce Russia even though we have an economy that is levels more productive, innovative, and larger than the Russian economy. It takes time to stand up lines of production. We were not prepared for a conflict with a near peer or peer adversary. We're still not but we're a whole hell of a lot better off than we were in 2021.
Additional members were brought into NATO like Finland. Europe has increased defense spending significantly. It's still not enough, but the war for Europe to do so whereas Trump's previous threats had little impact. Outside of a couple of countries...NATO is more united and unquestionably stronger than it was in 2021. The amount of training, intelligence gathering, and exercises that NATO has performed because of the war is priceless.
I could go on and on. We've given very little in the way of straight cash transfers to Ukraine. Zelenskyy was the one who initially broached using a deal for minerals to pay back previous aide and secure additional future aide. Then the current admin decided to shake him down like a mob boss instead of working out a fair and palatable deal.
I actually expected Trump to be the one with hatred toward Ukraine, considering his first impeachment and other related issues, but it actually appears to be Vance who absolutely loathes Ukraine. I've been stunned to see Vance morph from a Never Trump figure into someone who seems to take positions more extreme than both Elon and Trump. I don't know what happened to the guy. He seems to have an absolutely massive chip on his shoulder. Trump is Trump. We all know how he is. Vance's anger, trolling, and smarmy attitude and actions are something darker. Quite frankly, I think Vance is magnitudes more dangerous than Donald Trump. Something is not right with JD.
In closing, I do think Zelenskyy made a mistake today while meeting with Vance and Trump. He should've known better -- especially with how important the moment was for his country's future. I know it was extremely hard to put up with the barbs, embrace of Russian propaganda, and outright appeasement of Putin, but he needed to suck it up and withstand it. That said, with a normal administration not made of two men with paper-thin egos, it wouldn't have even registered in the media. Vance's reaction was completely inappropriate and wholly unnecessary. It's like he was waiting for an opportunity to blast Zelenskyy. Again, Vance has deep hatred in his heart for Ukraine and I have no idea why that is.
Non-mets/weather fans should read this whole thread, too.