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Hurricane Melissa

In fairness, Extreme Planet did post more than his fair share of rather outlandish and scientifically questionable statements that probably did deserve ridicule.
Can you give some examples? Just curious. I'm sure Max has put some questionable stuff out there before, I just can't see or remember anything specific at the moment.

Yea, this one is a classic, the guy got utterly dragged for this even though he’s most likely correct in his assertion.

The amount of people spouting out claiming they recorded wind speeds far exceeding 200mph and that he’s “disrespecting the people who flew into this storm” is hilarious.
The content of extremeplanet's Camille article, as well as some of the insightful comments from people like Michael Laca, are great.
Doesn't change the fact that much of the comment section ended up getting overtaken by badly misspelled angry keyboard warrior comments, lol.

I think this is my favorite comment on the whole article. "leorules007" did indeed link an interesting report about Camille:
camille report.png
 
Hi, new here..

Interest piqued since this one comparable to 1935 Labor Day.

Looked at NOAA imagery ..east side of Savanna la Mar (the bigger town on the west of the eyewall), Petersfield, Carmel/Galloway frame homes/buildings warehouses damaged .. rooves off everywhere.. debris field of sheet metal everywhere.. same thing on the east inland Darliston, Cambridge, Montpelier, Mount Carey, rooves off and some buildings heavily damaged, churches and schools heavily damaged. Trees flattened just west of Santa Cruz to Savanna la Mar on the west. Stubbing of trees visible in aerial imagery as trees have brown color in several areas.

Belmont seventh adventist church collapsed with vehicle lodged to the NW. Church south of White House east wall collapsed.

This is video from Bethel Town inland and uphill.

 
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Turns out this prediction ended up being pretty accurate. Looks like some areas had traditional high-end F4 damage, which isn't surprising considering the hurricane easily could've had 240-250 mph wind gusts. Seems safe to say what hurricanes lack in instantaneous and explosive winds they easily make up for with the sustained nature of their winds.

Kinda crazy how well the Fujita scale translated in this instance. Was telling another user it feels like this community is starting to get a pretty good grasp on the wind speed/damage relationship.
252 mph (219 kt) at 250 m above the surface!
 


The tree damage in this video is literally outrageous. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anything like this from a TC.

I don’t think it’s outlandish to say that this is honestly the most violent vegetation damage i’ve ever seen that happened due to a tropical cyclone. That is just absolutely ridiculous.
 
Can you give some examples? Just curious. I'm sure Max has put some questionable stuff out there before, I just can't see or remember anything specific at the moment.


The content of extremeplanet's Camille article, as well as some of the insightful comments from people like Michael Laca, are great.
Doesn't change the fact that much of the comment section ended up getting overtaken by badly misspelled angry keyboard warrior comments, lol.

I think this is my favorite comment on the whole article. "leorules007" did indeed link an interesting report about Camille:
View attachment 48459
TBF, I'd probably side with C5 for Camille just because of the measured (>?)900 mb pressure at landfall. To get a pressure that low in a C4 the ambient pressure has to be absolutely fucked (see Wilma). Camille, however, was most certainly not 190 mph at landfall as was originally assumed.
 
TBF, I'd probably side with C5 for Camille just because of the measured (>?)900 mb pressure at landfall. To get a pressure that low in a C4 the ambient pressure has to be absolutely fucked (see Wilma). Camille, however, was most certainly not 190 mph at landfall as was originally assumed.
Honestly, I do have to agree that Camille was likely a Category 5 at landfall.

Max deserves to be commended for the article, and Michael Laca as well for his insight - and I do agree the original figure of 190MPH at landfall is likely dubious.

Where I don't agree with Max is where he says "I just don’t believe coastal locations experienced winds above the Cat 3 range" in the comments. Category 4? Maybe. Category 3? Not a chance.

Take this photo for example, which wasn't included in his article, but is in one of the reports he linked:
Camille-damage-motel.png

I have a general rule of thumb that a category 5 landfall can produce damage equivalent in intensity to an F/EF3 tornado (or even F/EF4 as seen with Melissa). Ted Fujita backed this up with his reports on Andrew, where he deemed some of the damage in Cutler Ridge and other areas to be equivalent to an F3 tornado.

Compare the damage to this photo from the 2019 El Reno tornado, where very similar damage to a very similar type of building was given a low-end EF3 rating.
f8393382-66f5-48fc-9b19-d428eeec043d-large16x9_ElRenoRenoStormDamage3.JPG


El Reno 2019 was rated EF3/143. Regarding the wind speed discrepancy...
1. There is no vertical component to hurricane winds, except maybe in miniswirls/mesovortices, so higher sustained winds may be required to cause F/EF3 equivalent damage;
2. The EF scale's wind speed estimates are likely too low.

Bottom line is that I believe Camille probably did make landfall with category 5 winds. The exact sustained wind speed I can't infer, but it was definitely at least at the lower end of C5. Also, the reanalysis figure of 175MPH is definitely more realistic than 190.
 
Can you give some examples? Just curious. I'm sure Max has put some questionable stuff out there before, I just can't see or remember anything specific at the moment.
I can't remember some of the specific examples off the top of my head, but what I do remember is that his prose/writing style often seemed to declare his opinions as facts for things that were highly subjective.
 
I can't remember some of the specific examples off the top of my head, but what I do remember is that his prose/writing style often seemed to declare his opinions as facts for things that were highly subjective.
I know he was pretty adamant about his belief that the EF scale dramatically underestimated tornado windspeeds (not that he was wrong necessarily but he beat that drum a lot). Idk, I enjoyed reading his site.
 
I know he was pretty adamant about his belief that the EF scale dramatically underestimated tornado windspeeds (not that he was wrong necessarily but he beat that drum a lot). Idk, I enjoyed reading his site.
Oh I did enjoy reading parts of his site, don't get me wrong. I did think he was a little too headstrong about certain things though and I'm not the only one.
 
Oh I did enjoy reading parts of his site, don't get me wrong. I did think he was a little too headstrong about certain things though and I'm not the only one.
One thing that I recall is that he had a disproportionate fixation on the significance of ground scouring compared to other damage indicators imo. He had a tendency to put too much weight on the concept of any degree of scouring essentially being an automatic EF5 indicator. He also would sometimes dubiously identify “ground scouring” in damage photo where there was just a little bit of dirt/mud or slight discoloration visible, despite it being insignificant and ambiguous as to what the photo actually shows.

In addition, there were a couple of times where he would draw sweeping conclusions based on research that didn’t go deep enough, which sometimes resulted in spread of misinformation. The big one I remember was his claim that the 1985 Niles-Wheatland tornado did not produce significant scouring or debarking, and this claim got passed around the growing online tornado community quite rapidly, but was years later shown to be very untrue based on research conducted by @locomusic01.

With all that said, Max played a huge role in getting many people interested in the relationship between tornado intensity and damage, along with the significance of contextual damage. He dug up and published a lot of important information and damage photos, and that’s significant. He’s certainly not someone I view in a negative light.

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread a bit.
 
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One thing that I recall is that he had a disproportionate fixation on the significance of ground scouring compared to other damage indicators imo. He had a tendency to put too much weight on the concept of any degree of scouring essentially being an automatic EF5 indicator. He also would sometimes dubiously identify “ground scouring” in damage photo where there was just a little bit of dirt/mud or slight discoloration visible, despite it being insignificant and ambiguous as to what the photo actually shows.

In addition, there were a couple of times where he would draw sweeping conclusions based on research that didn’t go deep enough, which sometimes resulted in spread of misinformation. The big one I remember was his claim that the 1985 Niles-Wheatland tornado did not produce significant scouring or debarking, and this claim got passed around the growing online tornado community quite rapidly, but was years later shown to be very untrue based on research conducted by @locomusic01.

With all that said, Max played a huge role in getting many people interested in the relationship between tornado intensity and damage, along with the significance of contextual damage. He dug up and published a lot of important information and damage photos, and that’s important. He’s certainly not someone I view in a negative light.

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread a bit.
Max’s article on the Joplin tornado was actually the first tornado article I ever read as I had to do a project over the Joplin tornado in 5th grade and found his website. While I don’t agree with everything he says, he clearly has a devoted passion to what he does and it clearly shows. He has my upmost respect for sure!
 
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