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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

It’s not that I actually want EF5 ratings to be tough to achieve, but I guess I’m old school, and just have a tough time calling anything EF5 without bolts being visible. I’m all for less stringent practices that allow for more accuracy too, so I guess I can think of two scenarios in which I’d change my mind:

1.) If there’s engineering evidence showing that extensive toe-nailing of a home to a floor platform provides resistance and anchoring quality that is roughly equal to anchor bolts.

2.) If the bare subfloor is accompanied by bonkers, top-tier contextual damage.

But I’m mostly interested in finding out if scenario #1 is true or not. My gut feeling is that LaDue’s stance maybe has something to do with that, but I have no proof either way, and there’s seemingly a lot of disagreement still regarding how high you can rate a bare subfloor. The range of wind speed estimates I’ve seen for Marion 2025 are just all over the place.
 
*3. Several studies have shown the wind-speed/rating relationship is way off and huge adjustments need to be made to try and bridge the gap.

I think this has gotta be it. When you consider multiple studies were done by the likes of NOAA and the NSSL (DOW and Lyza papers), plus the new compact objects study, I think there's some pretty strong pressure to remedy the situation and Ladue's presentation was influenced by that.

Plus, call me jaded, but considering the engineering folks haven't been willing to budge an inch on anything for years regardless of the reasoning, even if new info was discovered about homes with subfloors I doubt it'd influence much in that camp.

It's gotta be a case of scientists taking a little bit of agency back from the Texas Tech engineers.
 
It’s not that I actually want EF5 ratings to be tough to achieve, but I guess I’m old school, and just have a tough time calling anything EF5 without bolts being visible. I’m all for less stringent practices that allow for more accuracy too, so I guess I can think of two scenarios in which I’d change my mind:

1.) If there’s engineering evidence showing that extensive toe-nailing of a home to a floor platform provides resistance and anchoring quality that is roughly equal to anchor bolts.

2.) If the bare subfloor is accompanied by bonkers, top-tier contextual damage.

But I’m mostly interested in finding out if scenario #1 is true or not. My gut feeling is that LaDue’s stance maybe has something to do with that, but I have no proof either way, and there’s seemingly a lot of disagreement still regarding how high you can rate a bare subfloor. The range of wind speed estimates I’ve seen for Marion 2025 are just all over the place.
I misread this and thought you were naming possible reasons the NWS would change their mind. That's the context for my last comment lol
 
So it does seem like Lyza and LaDue are proposing a less conservative approach to surveying, but whether this approach catches on remains to be seen. You mentioned Texas Tech, and I could see them raising a huge fuss about that kind of approach.

Still, my #1 question revolves around whether there’s a specific engineering-based reason as to why LaDue stated that extensive toe-nailing or sheathing could make a bare subfloor home EF5 worthy, if this is becoming more widely accepted or not, and if this also extends to poured slab foundation homes as well.
 
So it does seem like Lyza and LaDue are proposing a less conservative approach to surveying, but whether this approach catches on remains to be seen. You mentioned Texas Tech, and I could see them raising a huge fuss about that kind of approach.

Still, my #1 question revolves around whether there’s a specific engineering-based reason as to why LaDue stated that extensive toe-nailing or sheathing could make a bare subfloor home EF5 worthy, and if this also extends to poured slab foundation homes as well.

Your comments are probably a pretty good example of the thought processes going on at a lot of NWS offices right now. There's zero chance MEG would ever rate a subfloor EF4, let alone EF5. I can't imagine how entrenched some of these surveyors are. I wonder if even someone like Jim Ladue has much influence in that regard.

It really does seem like he needs to elaborate more on that presentation. This is where some strong leadership in this field from a Fujita type figure would be nice.
 
I actually can't think of a single EF4 off the top of my head without a clean subfloor or some form of anchoring. Did Ladue basically just say "all EF4s might actually be EF5s" in the most casual way imaginable? lmao the implications really do make your head spin.
I’m not sure what you mean in the first bolded section. Could you clarify?

But no, that's not what he’s saying. It’s not just any clean subfloor that would be an EF5 candidate under LaDue’s definition. He specifically said they only could be EF5 worthy if one of two features were present:

1.) If extensive toe-nailing is present.

2.) If extensive external sheathing is present which overlaps with the side portion of the floor platform.
 
I’m not sure what you mean in the first bolded section. Could you clarify?

But no, that's not what he’s saying. It’s not just any clean subfloor that would be an EF5 candidate under LaDue’s definition. He specifically said they only could be EF5 worthy if one of two features were present:

1.) If extensive toe-nailing is present.

2.) If extensive external sheathing is present which overlaps with the side portion of the floor platform.

I'm saying all the EF4s I can think of got the EF4 rating because either an anchored home or subfloor with toe nails was wiped clean. If these types of homes are now considered "EF5 worthy" it'd mean most EF4s are actually EF5s.

I didn't realize external sheathing was also required, so this adds another layer which makes it less cut and dry.
 
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I'm saying all the EF4s I can think of got the EF4 rating because either an anchored home (or subfloor with toe nails) was wiped clean. If these types of homes are now considered "EF5 worthy" it'd mean most EF4s are actually EF5s.

I didn't realize external sheathing was also required, so this adds another layer which makes it less cut and dry.
Well sheathing isn’t necessarily required. It’s either or. Toe nails OR extensive sheathing.

But no that’s not what LaDue is trying to say. Not all bare subfloors have extensive toe nailing, and not all houses have extensive sheathing that overlaps with the side of the floor platform. Nor is he saying that any anchored home in general is an EF5 candidate.

Elkhorn lacked sheathing overlapping the side of the floor and extensive toe nailing, and from what I recall, Marion used a mix of straight nails and toe nails and I don’t believe there was sheathing there either, so neither fit the “LaDue definition” despite being rated EF4. Does that make sense?
 
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Not to open a whole new can of worms, but what is your guys’s opinion on the fairly recent Jim LaDue presentation on current day EF scale application? It was posted on this forum not too long ago.

The thing that I’ve been having a hard time wrapping my brain around is the part where he essentially describes some of the bare subfloor EF4 homes in Elkhorn as being rated too low, and he provides a scenario for EF5 ratings at bare subfloor homes. The scenario is either extensive toe-nailing of the wall studs, OR extensive sheathing (that green stuff you see on homes under construction) that overlaps with the side of the floor platform. What’s mind boggling to me is how this essentially provides a scenario for an EF5 house rating in which anchor bolts are not visible and seemingly not directly in play. It has me thinking, would this be applicable to a boltless slab foundation home too?

If extensive sheathing or toe-nailing alone is enough to make a home an EF5 candidate, it would lower the bar for EF5 house damage significantly, but I just can’t see that being put into practice. I’m unsure as to whether this is something that is currently becoming widely accepted, or if it’s just something that Jim LaDue is proposing but hasn’t “caught on” yet?

The idea of an EF5 house rating without any kind of visible bolting has been making my head spin, and I’d love to hear from others about the viability of this concept (paging @Saltical Wx)
I believe houses in were rated F5 for having subfloors swept away, not sure how that would work on the Ef scale. Maybe a subfloor anchoring DI could be introduced?
 
I personally don't care how easy or hard EF5 is to achieve as long as we're getting the wind speeds right. I think the real reason it seems like bare subfloors would make EF5s too easy is because we've been seeing a dramatic uptrend in violent tornadoes.

We used to average 1-2 F5s per year even when subfloors were being rated as such. If we surveyed this year like we did in the 90s there would've easily been 6 F5s this year. Which is pretty wild when you consider what it means.
A little late on my end as far as this response goes, but I wanted to add that I do still believe that achieving an EF5 rating should be very rare and reserved for the highest end events - something that they really, really need to change in the newer EF scale is the windspeed estimates themselves at each rating, as they are straight-up inaccurate a lot of the time. But I think the way EF5s were rated from 2007-2013 was honestly okay - not perfect by any means (Goldsby and Chickasha, but I have a reason why these could have potentially been underrated outside of strict surveying as well) but definitely better than what occurred before or after that era of surveying. If anyone gave Elkhorn an EF5 rating because it slabbed a subfloor slider, I simply will never support that notion. Elkhorn was not, in any way, comparable to a typical EF5 tornado in terms of its damage, or even a high end EF4 for that matter. Low end EF4 is the correct call to me, and if it is confirmed that we found that winds exceeding 200 mph are required to inflict such damage, then the bar for EF5s in terms of windspeed should be raised to accommodate this, and windspeed estimates for many tornadoes would need to be revised.

Were bare subfloors being rated F5 a lot in the 90s? If that is the case that is very interesting, because I was under the impression that the 90s tended to be a more violent decade than the others, characterized by many high end events occurring during that era specifically (BCM, Loyal Valley, Jarrell, Andover, Red Rock, Oakfield, Pampa, etc). I believed that in the past, tornado ratings tended to be more liberal in general, especially the further back you go - but as people have shown me on this forum, that isn't entirely true because you can take a look at the 1965 Palm Sunday outbreak and see that they were very conservative for the ratings in that outbreak. There were at least 3 tornadoes deserving of an F5 there, and many of the other F4s probably did reach F5 intensity. Admittedly, though, I cannot point to another outbreak where they definitely underrated the storms in the past, so it's very possible that it was a one-time thing, in a sense.

If anything, I feel like the amount of violent tornadoes per year has remained pretty constant outside of outlier years like 2011. It is so difficult to tell because of the extreme inconsistency in surveying, though, and to me that is a major, major issue in the way we are tracking tornadoes and their power. EF ratings are simply not accurate to determine how strong tornadoes are much of the time, as unfortunate as that is. Think of all the violent tornadoes we have missed simply because they didn't hit anything. The first thing that comes to my mind is the Nebraska Sand Hills outbreak and the Plevna supercell from this year - without a single doubt in my mind, many violent tornadoes from these two events alone were missed. Not that I think that the tornadoes here deserved higher ratings based on the confines of the scale, I'm just pointing out that it shows how much more that there is to learn and apply when it comes to this science.

EDIT: As for Chickasha/Goldsby, I do genuinely believe that they snubbed EF5 ratings for these two tornadoes partially because of a desire to nitpick based on the fact that there already was many rated EF5s that year. But that's baseless conjecture, and I'm only saying that because it seems like something that would make sense based on human psychology. This is just what I believe. If those two tornadoes occurred in a more typical tornado year, I think EF5 ratings would have been granted.
 
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I believed that in the past, tornado ratings tended to be more liberal in general, especially the further back you go - but as people have shown me on this forum, that isn't entirely true because you can take a look at the 1965 Palm Sunday outbreak and see that they were very conservative for the ratings in that outbreak. There were at least 3 tornadoes deserving of an F5 there, and many of the other F4s probably did reach F5 intensity. Admittedly, though, I cannot point to another outbreak where they definitely underrated the storms in the past, so it's very possible that it was a one-time thing, in a sense.
I’m of the opinion multiple tornados in Palm Sunday 1965 were more deserving of F5 than some of the 4/3/74 F5s. I’m honestly still not sure what went on with the ratings for that outbreak. I’m of the opinion it was a one time “conservative application” rating event during that era.

I do believe F4s were overly inflated in the past. Very liberal in some cases. I could be wrong on that front though. I applaud the work that Grazulis and team did, but I do find their ratings sometimes very inconsistent across the 20th century. Which will happen because they were pouring over newspaper clippings from early 20th century archives. That will involve some subjectivity.

With what we know now about the EF scale, you really can’t compare it to F scale outbreaks and eras anymore. It’s honestly an apples to fried chicken comparison. Lyza’s paper showed that the main attempt of some kind of continuation between the two scales, regarding the single family home DI, was never actually correctly applied and implemented. 200 MPH EF4 rounding SNAFU not withstanding. I really just treat this current era of tornadic ratings as an aberration compared to the historical record. Which, ironically, invalidates Grazulis’ OIS formula he created.

The EF scale is what we have until a new method with some yet to be deployed/discovered technology allows us to better and accurately measure A tornado’s true intensity.
 
I’m of the opinion multiple tornados in Palm Sunday 1965 were more deserving of F5 than some of the 4/3/74 F5s. I’m honestly still not sure what went on with the ratings for that outbreak. I’m of the opinion it was a one time “conservative application” rating event during that era.

I do believe F4s were overly inflated in the past. Very liberal in some cases. I could be wrong on that front though. I applaud the work that Grazulis and team did, but I do find their ratings sometimes very inconsistent across the 20th century. Which will happen because they were pouring over newspaper clippings from early 20th century archives. That will involve some subjectivity.

With what we know now about the EF scale, you really can’t compare it to F scale outbreaks and eras anymore. It’s honestly an apples to fried chicken comparison. Lyza’s paper showed that the main attempt of some kind of continuation between the two scales, regarding the single family home DI, was never actually correctly applied and implemented. 200 MPH EF4 rounding SNAFU not withstanding. I really just treat this current era of tornadic ratings as an aberration compared to the historical record. Which, ironically, invalidates Grazulis’ OIS formula he created.

The EF scale is what we have until a new method with some yet to be deployed/discovered technology allows us to better and accurately measure A tornado’s true intensity.
Agreed. I’m also of the opinion that the 1965 Palm Sunday tornado outbreak probably have had several tornadoes go undocumented. Truly one of the most violent tornado outbreaks in history and the fact a lot of the tornadoes weren’t even rated F5 and some clearly deserved that rating, absolutely baffles me.
 
I’m of the opinion multiple tornados in Palm Sunday 1965 were more deserving of F5 than some of the 4/3/74 F5s. I’m honestly still not sure what went on with the ratings for that outbreak. I’m of the opinion it was a one time “conservative application” rating event during that era.

I do believe F4s were overly inflated in the past. Very liberal in some cases. I could be wrong on that front though. I applaud the work that Grazulis and team did, but I do find their ratings sometimes very inconsistent across the 20th century. Which will happen because they were pouring over newspaper clippings from early 20th century archives. That will involve some subjectivity.

With what we know now about the EF scale, you really can’t compare it to F scale outbreaks and eras anymore. It’s honestly an apples to fried chicken comparison. Lyza’s paper showed that the main attempt of some kind of continuation between the two scales, regarding the single family home DI, was never actually correctly applied and implemented. 200 MPH EF4 rounding SNAFU not withstanding. I really just treat this current era of tornadic ratings as an aberration compared to the historical record. Which, ironically, invalidates Grazulis’ OIS formula he created.

The EF scale is what we have until a new method with some yet to be deployed/discovered technology allows us to better and accurately measure A tornado’s true intensity.
The second issue with the original Fujita scale is that the scale had 3 different eras (4 if you count the pre-1950 records) where its application is completely different. Pre-1980 rating are extremely inconsistent and erratic, with tornadoes like Sunfield and Belmond earning extremely flimsy F5 ratings. This then completely vanishes in the 80s, where most f5 ratings end up being much more verifiable and well supported. Then when La Plata gets demoted there is another split in the records which ends up essentially temporarily eliminating the f5 rating as a whole.

In truth, there hasn't ever really been a consistent precedent with either of the Fujita scale. The real problem is that a lot of people treat either one like they're the bible, even though again, neither have a consistent precedent.
 
I know Reddit can be a cesspool, but recently people are creating posts there that Smithville was the only tornado that was an actual EF-5 that day, and that the other three, particularly HPC, should be downgraded. I would argue that it is more likely that there were MORE tornadoes that day that were capable of EF-5 damage at some point.
 
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