Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[joshoctober16]

Apologies for just now seeing this, but here are some. I think it’s safe to say this one was probably a bit stronger than an EF3.
View attachment 47412View attachment 47413View attachment 47414View attachment 47415
View attachment 47422

Here’s the property of the ‘well-built’ home that was swept clean.
View attachment 47416View attachment 47417

Now for what’s relevant in this discussion, the interesting things I found in the damage points file I received from NWS DDC. While going through the file and plotting out the given coordinates, I noticed these DI’s from Hopewell.

The first 3 photos I attached were from a farmstead that was completely destroyed and had a fatality. It was labeled as an EF4 DI in the file. The home that was described as well-built and being swept away was also labeled as “EF04,” which could be a typo, but interesting nonetheless.
View attachment 47420
View attachment 47421

There are a few possibilities that could explain what happened here. Either this was all just a straight up typo and an error, or it was supposed to be upgraded and for whatever reason never got finalized as such. The third possibility, and what I think is the most logical, is that the tornado was initially rated an EF4 then was later downgraded to EF3. Although contextual evidence was crystal-clear indicative of a violent tornado, construction practices weren’t great for the residences impacted.

It is also worth noting that the initial surveys from the first QRT for Greensburg used some rather strict criteria for the residential damage DI’s. They initially said that virtually all the damage within Greensburg was caused by an EF3 to low-end EF4 tornado, and that a section of the High School was what pushed them to rate it an EF5. If they were using those same guidelines for the tornadoes that followed Greensburg, then it’s no wonder none of them were rated higher than EF3, despite both Trousdale and Hopewell cleanly sweeping away farm homes.

Anyway, I emailed NWS Dodge City to see if I could get an explanation about the DI labeled EF4, but never received a response unfortunately. I do plan on emailing the retired DDC Met who surveyed the entire event, and I’ll update if I receive a response.

for one of the big 3 EF3 it states this.

This tornado moved out of northwest Pratt county and dissipated just south of Macksville. It did strong EF3 damage to farms, trees, machinery and vehicles. A Blazer was carried over 3/4 of a mile and was barely recognizable as a vehicle. Several dozen head of cattle were killed along with wildlife in the area. One well built home was completely swept off it's foundation.

A vehicle is thrown 0.75 miles away.
3/4 of a mile or 0.75 miles of a mile = 1.207 km.
and it swept clean a well built home ... yet only EF3??? EF3 are for poorly built homes only.

im pretty sure this is the second EF3 wedge.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

for one of the big 3 EF3 it states this.

This tornado moved out of northwest Pratt county and dissipated just south of Macksville. It did strong EF3 damage to farms, trees, machinery and vehicles. A Blazer was carried over 3/4 of a mile and was barely recognizable as a vehicle. Several dozen head of cattle were killed along with wildlife in the area. One well built home was completely swept off it's foundation.

A vehicle is thrown 0.75 miles away.
3/4 of a mile or 0.75 miles of a mile = 1.207 km.
and it swept clean a well built home ... yet only EF3??? EF3 are for poorly built homes only.

im pretty sure this is the second EF3 wedge.

That would be from Hopewell yes. What I find most odd is that several homes in Greensburg destroyed in the same fashion with virtually identical construction practices as the ones impacted in Trousdale and Hopewell were given a rating of EF4 by Tim Marshall. Just one example of a double standard within the rating system.

Also, the Trousdale tornado tossed a combine over 400 yards and smashed it to pieces, which after the precedent Enderlin set could be a good re-analysis point. I’m assuming it was probably the same type of combine as the ones from the dealership in Greensburg, and those weighed around 36,000 lbs. I don’t remember what the Canadian study found to be the threshold of EF4+ intensity for multi-ton objects being thrown, but I’d imagine it was within that category.

 

[joshoctober16]

That would be from Hopewell yes. What I find most odd is that several homes in Greensburg destroyed in the same fashion with virtually identical construction practices as the ones impacted in Trousdale and Hopewell were given a rating of EF4 by Tim Marshall. Just one example of a double standard within the rating system.

Also, the Trousdale tornado tossed a combine over 400 yards and smashed it to pieces, which after the precedent Enderlin set could be a good re-analysis point. I’m assuming it was probably the same type of combine as the ones from the dealership in Greensburg, and those weighed around 36,000 lbs. I don’t remember what the Canadian study found to be the threshold of EF4+ intensity for multi-ton objects being thrown, but I’d imagine it was within that category.

all i know is that heavy compact objects being thrown 50 meters is the starting point of EF5 rating according to the Canadian paper and Enderlin.

 

[tornado examiner]

I think large modern farm equipment being thrown is generally a better metric for violent tornadoes than automobiles because tractors and combine’s harvesters are a magnitude heavier and harder to lift than any car or truck.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

That would be from Hopewell yes. What I find most odd is that several homes in Greensburg destroyed in the same fashion with virtually identical construction practices as the ones impacted in Trousdale and Hopewell were given a rating of EF4 by Tim Marshall. Just one example of a double standard within the rating system.

Also, the Trousdale tornado tossed a combine over 400 yards and smashed it to pieces, which after the precedent Enderlin set could be a good re-analysis point. I’m assuming it was probably the same type of combine as the ones from the dealership in Greensburg, and those weighed around 36,000 lbs. I don’t remember what the Canadian study found to be the threshold of EF4+ intensity for multi-ton objects being thrown, but I’d imagine it was within that category.

The Trousdale and Hopewell tornadoee certainly did EF4+ damage to vehicles and farm equipment.

 

[wolfywise]

The Trousdale and Hopewell tornadoee certainly did EF4+ damage to vehicles and farm equipment.

Definitely puts the Greensburg supercell with Pilger, Greensburg-Plevna, and Philadelphia-Ringgold supercells as the most violent supercells

 

[ColdFront]

Definitely puts the Greensburg supercell with Pilger, Greensburg-Plevna, and Philadelphia-Ringgold supercells as the most violent supercells

I don’t like to rank tornados because it feels very sports talk radio to me (5 best quarterbacks in the league right now are…) and it’s impossible to say tornado x wouldn’t have done the same thing as tornado y if it encountered this specific DI….

With that said, I’ll absolutely shout from the rooftops that the Cordova supercell from 4/27/11 is arguably the most violent and impressive supercell of all time. Maybe only rivaled by the DePauw/Cincinnati supercell on 4/3/74.

You could plausibly argue (especially after the great findings from @TH2002) that the Cordova supercell dropped 3 EF5s in a row. Cordova, Rainsville, then Ringgold. 4 EF5s If you count its pre-merger storm in Philadelphia. Not only that, the storm continued to produce well into the night with EF3s up in northeastern Tennessee and tornados into Virginia. Just by longevity and the number of continuous violent tornados, it’s definitely in my opinion the most impressive supercell.

 

[Aaron Rider]

That would be from Hopewell yes. What I find most odd is that several homes in Greensburg destroyed in the same fashion with virtually identical construction practices as the ones impacted in Trousdale and Hopewell were given a rating of EF4 by Tim Marshall. Just one example of a double standard within the rating system.

Also, the Trousdale tornado tossed a combine over 400 yards and smashed it to pieces, which after the precedent Enderlin set could be a good re-analysis point. I’m assuming it was probably the same type of combine as the ones from the dealership in Greensburg, and those weighed around 36,000 lbs. I don’t remember what the Canadian study found to be the threshold of EF4+ intensity for multi-ton objects being thrown, but I’d imagine it was within that category.

Which of those "other" (besides Greensburg) tornadoes that night do you feel could or should warrant EF5?

 

[mike36]

I don’t like to rank tornados because it feels very sports talk radio to me (5 best quarterbacks in the league right now are…) and it’s impossible to say tornado x wouldn’t have done the same thing as tornado y if it encountered this specific DI….

With that said, I’ll absolutely shout from the rooftops that the Cordova supercell from 4/27/11 is arguably the most violent and impressive supercell of all time. Maybe only rivaled by the DePauw/Cincinnati supercell on 4/3/74.

You could plausibly argue (especially after the great findings from @TH2002) that the Cordova supercell dropped 3 EF5s in a row. Cordova, Rainsville, then Ringgold. 4 EF5s If you count its pre-merger storm in Philadelphia. Not only that, the storm continued to produce well into the night with EF3s up in northeastern Tennessee and tornados into Virginia. Just by longevity and the number of continuous violent tornados, it’s definitely in my opinion the most impressive supercell.

There was also near EF5 damage in Apison , TN after it struck Ringgold.

 

[Western_KS_Wx]

Which of those "other" (besides Greensburg) tornadoes that night do you feel could or should warrant EF5?

I think Trousdale and Hopewell reached EF5 intensity. As for damage alone, structurally I haven’t found anything that warrants that rating. I have only a handful of photos showing the worst of Trousdale’s damage, and from what I’ve seen and heard it’s almost certain it was probably EF5 strength. It completely obliterated a farmstead and entirely swept away the home, and a large tree on the property was ripped out of the ground, root-balls and all, and carried a considerable distance.

Even Tim Marshall believed Trousdale was an EF5-strength tornado, as seen below. I forgot to clarify, in the parenthesis where he stated “not stronger,” he’s referring to whether Trousdale was more intense than Greensburg.

After doing an aerial survey of Greensburg he apparently flew over a section of the path of Trousdale and described seeing “mowed grass” and a path on the vegetation that could be seen for miles. He didn’t photograph this unfortunately as it wasn’t relevant to the Greensburg survey.

In interviews, the meteorologists that surveyed Trousdale also have stated it was probably an EF5, with some going as far to say it was stronger than Greensburg. I also noticed in the damage points file, one area of tree damage was so severe it was labeled EF3+. This was not far from where a farmstead was essentially wiped away.


Here’s another little tidbit about Trousdale.


Based on what I’ve read, this was a similar situation to Chapman where the surveyors said “there’s no doubt in my mind” it would’ve been an EF5 had it hit a town.

 

[Central Ohio Wx]

Speaking of Greensburg, are there any photos of damage from "the loop"? Looking back at historical imagery I see zero indication that it went south of Highway 400 to the northwest of Greensburg (instead moving directly west before occluding), and based on what I've gathered radar is the biggest supporting factor that it did in fact loop around near the end of its life.

 

[Central Ohio Wx]

You could plausibly argue (especially after the great findings from @TH2002) that the Cordova supercell dropped 3 EF5s in a row. Cordova, Rainsville, then Ringgold. 4 EF5s If you count its pre-merger storm in Philadelphia. Not only that, the storm continued to produce well into the night with EF3s up in northeastern Tennessee and tornados into Virginia. Just by longevity and the number of continuous violent tornados, it’s definitely in my opinion the most impressive supercell.

Where's potential EF5 damage from the Cordova tornado? I haven't seen anything that rises above EF4.

 

[ColdFront]

Where's potential EF5 damage from the Cordova tornado? I haven't seen anything that rises above EF4.

It’s in this thread. I believe @TH2002 originally found the obliterated home and @Grand Poo Bah also did a really good write up on it.

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

It’s in this thread. I believe @TH2002 originally found the obliterated home and @Grand Poo Bah also did a really good write up on it.

I actually never got to Cordova. You might be thinking of Cullman.

 

[ColdFront]

I actually never got to Cordova. You might be thinking of Cullman.

I thought you did a write up on Cordova too but was mistaken. Here is the post where TH talks about Cordova:

Regarding Perryville, I had it on my list originally but eventually removed it. The house it swept away was very well-built but the contextual damage just didn't cut it.

Canton Lake may have reached EF5 intensity over the lake but I don't think it caused any EF5 damage, structurally or contextually. The debarking and pavement scouring were definitely violent but not reliable enough EF5 indicators. Same thing for Askewville, violent contextual damage but not quite enough for EF5 (this is just my opinion)

Probably should have put Barnesville on the list (I'll update the post accordingly). I think HE EF4 would be appropriate there but a case for a lower end 5 can be made.

Ringgold: I don't think any genuine EF5 structural damage occurred in Georgia except for maybe one home I haven't been able to find ground level views of. I do think it meets the structural and contextual criteria for EF5 (by 2011 standards at least) in Tennessee though.

Cordova: a newly built, plausibly well constructed home was swept away in Cullman County that was missed in the survey. That, plus the contextual damage is enough for EF5 imo.

Flat Rock: will add it to my list with a hyphen since it possibly reached EF5 intensity, but I don't think it's an EF5 candidate. The home the surveyor is referring to was on a block foundation and the bolted down subfloor remained. EF4 is fine.

Not too familiar with Sterling City. Can you tell me more about it?

Buckeye and TH2002 are our two most knowledgeable members on damage surveys and the scale. If they think something is a 5, then I’m inclined to 100% trust their judgement.

 

[TH2002]

re: Cordova.

 

[Ozonelayer]

Not to beat a dead horse at this point but given the new "It doesn't have to be a fortress to be an EF-5" precedent and the Enderlin method, I think Bassfield-Soso now has a much more solid argument for EF-5. Aswell as a few tornadoes from 2011 like Ringgold and Cordova, maybe one of the Pilger tornadoes, and the one that has been most recently discussed to death on here to a near universally agreed upon EF-5 argument, Mayfield. I didn't include tornadoes like Vilonia and Goldsby because they objectively should have been rated EF-5 even in their time periods.

Bassfield's argument still seems not completely solid to me, but I do agree it should have been EF-5 now. Rather impressive vehicle lofting/damage too.

Ringgold to me is one of the stronger candidates I've mentioned, with a home that plausibly met EF-5 criteria and solid contextual damage being the main argument.

Cordova is also one of the stronger candidates here, it slabbed a well-built home and did very heavy contextual damage overall with some solid vehicle damage.

Pilger did solid damage and had some heavy contextual damage. I'm not so sure about structural damage on this one though, unless I missed something.

Mayfield could very well be the strongest tornado on this list, and the debris granulation and ground scouring are in leagues of their own. Debarking was lessened due to it being winter, but given the new precedent, there is quite a strong argument that the 190 MPH home should have been rated EF-5 which I completely agree with. That isn't even mentioning the extreme vehicle damage near and around the candle factory and the research facility.