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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

cat_5_meow said:
As said in the other thread, a lot of us have our own EF5 list. But I also have a few "major question marks" that had a chance to have been as strong as some of the bolded ones above (based on visual cues, strength of other tornadoes in the outbreak, in the same cell...), but which it is difficult to honestly put on an EF5 list due to not tracking over much at all, not having DOW measurements, etc. I have six on the list, all relatively recent:
Hoover Jun 8 95
Mulhall May 3 99 (there was an excellent article on here a few weeks ago on why this one likely wasn't even nearly as strong as Bridge Creek, but that's still a high bar!)
Trousdale and the rest of the Greensburg family May 4 07
Lake Martin Apr 27 11
Canton Lake May 24 11
Camp Crook Jun 28 18 (although this one has a bit more evidence than the rest)

I'd be interested in knowing some more examples of mystery strong tornadoes like those, recent or much older too. Of course a lot of tornadoes on Apr 27 might have that status, but I feel the list of potential candidates has been narrowed down to a few convincing candidates (Tuscaloosa, Cullman, Pisgah/Flat Rock, New Wren, Barnesville, New Harmony, Cordova, Ringgold) whereas Lake Martin is truly impossible to decide.
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For 5/3/99, don't forget Dover.

Also, thanks for reminding me of Canton Lake. I think it was probably a highest grade tornado based on asphalt scouring.
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
Yellow - EF3. This is tornadoes that were either officially downgraded from EF4 or tornadoes I downgraded from EF4.
Orange - EF3/EF4. For ones where I'm.not sure which one's appropriate.
Red - EF4.
Dark red - EF4/EF5. See EF3/EF4.
Purple - EF5.
Black - EF6. There's only one.
Click to expand...
Is it possible to do a map purely of tornadoes you think were underrated?
 
With inspiration from @Lake Martin EF4 , I have decided to create a list of what I believe were the top 5 most powerful tornadoes since 2013.

1. Mayfield/Western Kentucky EF-4 (2021)
2. Vilonia-Mayflower EF-4 (2014)
3. Matador EF-3 (2023)
4. Bassfield-Soso EF-4 (2020)
5. Rochelle-Fairdale EF-4 (2015)
 
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Ozonelayer said:
With inspiration from @Lake Martin EF4 , I have decided to create a list of what I believe were the top 5 most powerful tornadoes since 2013.

1. Mayfield/Western Kentucky EF-4 (2021)
2. Vilonia-Mayflower EF-4 (2014)
3. Matador EF-3 (2023)
4. Bassfield-Soso EF-4 (2020)
5. Rochelle-Fairdale EF-4 (2015)
Click to expand...
Here would be mine.

1: Vilonia
2: Matador
3: Chapman
4: Mayfield/Western Kentucky
5: Rochelle/Fairdale
 
Ozonelayer said:
With inspiration from @Lake Martin EF4 , I have decided to create a list of what I believe were the top 5 most powerful tornadoes since 2013.

1. Mayfield/Western Kentucky EF-4 (2021)
2. Vilonia-Mayflower EF-4 (2014)
3. Matador EF-3 (2023)
4. Bassfield-Soso EF-4 (2020)
5. Rochelle-Fairdale EF-4 (2015)
Click to expand...
As a direct competition, my Top 5 Strongest Tornadoes Post-2013:
  1. Matador, TX (6/21/23 - #4 of all time)
  2. Chapman, KS (5/25/16 - somewhere in my all time top 20)
  3. Vilonia, AR (4/27/14 - also maybe in my all time top 20)
  4. Mayfield, KY (12/10/21)
  5. Bassfield, MS (4/14/20)/Monette, AR (12/10/21)
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
As a direct competition, my Top 5 Strongest Tornadoes Post-2013:
  1. Matador, TX (6/21/23 - #4 of all time)
  2. Chapman, KS (5/25/16 - somewhere in my all time top 20)
  3. Vilonia, AR (4/27/14 - also maybe in my all time top 20)
  4. Mayfield, KY (12/10/21)
  5. Bassfield, MS (4/14/20)/Monette, AR (12/10/21)
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Yeah I forgot about Chapman. Would probably go in #4 and push Bassfield to #5.

The reason I have Mayfield and Vilonia above Matador is the movement speed. Matador traveled slower than than Mayfield, who while moving at 60-70 MPH, turned debris into a paste and sprayed Bremen with said debris paste. While the debarking and knubbing of Mesquite from Matador is remarkable, Mayfield straight up granulated some pine trees and wiped away a well built CMU home in a Smithville-Esque fashion. The point is that Mayfield had to have higher winds than Matador to do comparable damage to Matador but while moving at nearly 3 times the speed.

Vilonia is more iffy though. While it did move quite a bit faster than Matador the damage is a bit less impressive than the Mesquite debarking and knubbing. What made me put it over Matador was the same thing as Mayfield. Lets say Vilonia had the same strength as Matador but moved the same speed, obviously since the structures had less time experiencing winds the damage would lessen. However the damage was comparable nonetheless, and it was moving ~45 MPH for most of its life, while Matador was moving ~25 MPH or less for all it's life. But thats why I have Mayfield and Vilonia above Matador.
 
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Ozonelayer said:
With inspiration from @Lake Martin EF4 , I have decided to create a list of what I believe were the top 5 most powerful tornadoes since 2013.

1. Mayfield/Western Kentucky EF-4 (2021)
2. Vilonia-Mayflower EF-4 (2014)
3. Matador EF-3 (2023)
4. Bassfield-Soso EF-4 (2020)
5. Rochelle-Fairdale EF-4 (2015)
Click to expand...
My top 5 using NWS strictness (but not too strict that there are 0 EF5 in existence) along with what i feel what the min rating should of been

1:Chifeng WTS EF4 August 2017 (205 MPH) - note this is not a USA Tornado
2:Mayfield - Bremen EF4+ Dec 2021 (205 MPH)
3:Vilonia - Mayflower EF4+ April 2014 (205 MPH)
4:Rochelle EF4+ April 2015 (205 MPH)
5:Chapman EF4+ May 2016 (200 MPH)

however my top 5 using all context , measurement and non official DI would look different
 
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Ozonelayer said:
The reason I have Mayfield and Vilonia above Matador is the movement speed. Matador traveled slower than than Mayfield, who while moving at 60-70 MPH, turned debris into a paste and sprayed Bremen with said debris paste. While the debarking and knubbing of Mesquite from Matador is remarkable, Mayfield straight up granulated some pine trees and wiped away a well built CMU home in a Smithville-Esque fashion. The point is that Mayfield had to have higher winds than Matador to do comparable damage to Matador but while moving at nearly 3 times the speed.
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I don't remember pine trees being as reliably hardy as mesquites, though I could be wrong. The CMU, while impressive, can also be argued to not constitute EF5 damage - @buckeye05 has stated something like this before. The paste is impressive, but I believe either Buckeye, @TH2002 or both have stated that Picher, for one, was actually more impressive contextually than Mayfield. (Also of note regarding "faster + catastrophic damage = stronger" - I have Smithville at #9 on my top 10 strongest: higher than Jarrell, but lower than New Richmond, Moore 2013, the late 2000s "-burg" EF5s, the June 1990 monsters in Texas and Nebraska, Matador, Bridge Creek, Tri-State and Piedmont in that order. I believe it has been argued that fast forward speed by itself, even with the presence of impressive damage, doesn't necessarily mean Tornado X was stronger than Tornado Y.)
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
I don't remember pine trees being as reliably hardy as mesquites, though I could be wrong. The CMU, while impressive, can also be argued to not constitute EF5 damage - @buckeye05 has stated something like this before. The paste is impressive, but I believe either Buckeye, @TH2002 or both have stated that Picher, for one, was actually more impressive contextually than Mayfield. (Also of note - I have Smithville at #9 on my top 10 strongest: higher than Jarrell, but lower than New Richmond, Moore 2013, the late 2000s "-burg" EF5s, the June 1990 monsters in Texas and Nebraska, Matador, Bridge Creek, Tri-State and Piedmont in that order.)
Click to expand...
The only thing Picher did that was more impressive than Mayfield as a whole was more complete debarking of trees. The scouring was honestly the most impressive contextual damage from the Mayfield tornado.
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
I don't remember pine trees being as reliably hardy as mesquites, though I could be wrong. The CMU, while impressive, can also be argued to not constitute EF5 damage - @buckeye05 has stated something like this before. The paste is impressive, but I believe either Buckeye, @TH2002 or both have stated that Picher, for one, was actually more impressive contextually than Mayfield. (Also of note regarding "faster + catastrophic damage = stronger" - I have Smithville at #9 on my top 10 strongest: higher than Jarrell, but lower than New Richmond, Moore 2013, the late 2000s "-burg" EF5s, the June 1990 monsters in Texas and Nebraska, Matador, Bridge Creek, Tri-State and Piedmont in that order. I believe it has been argued that fast forward speed by itself, even with the presence of impressive damage, doesn't necessarily mean Tornado X was stronger than Tornado Y.)
Click to expand...
You are correct that fast forward speed doesnt mean that the tornado is stronger, but I have yet to see images from Matador that are objectively more impressive than these:

Screenshot_20250619_143131_Internet.jpg
(Paste sprayed everywhere in a field of 10+ inch scouring.)
Screenshot_20250619_143327_Internet.jpg

(Pine trees impacted by the core granulated into a near powder.)

While pine trees aren't as strong as mesquite, these are completely granulated. Even if these were mesquite these would still likely sustain some granulation due to other contextuals. Matador did not granulate trees as far as I know though.
 
Ozonelayer said:
You are correct that fast forward speed doesnt mean that the tornado is stronger, but I have yet to see images from Matador that are objectively more impressive than these:

View attachment 44256
(Paste sprayed everywhere in a field of 10+ inch scouring.)
View attachment 44257

(Pine trees impacted by the core granulated into a near powder.)

While pine trees aren't as strong as mesquite, these are completely granulated. Even if these were mesquite these would still likely sustain some granulation due to other contextuals. Matador did not granulate trees as far as I know though.
Click to expand...
Where was that first image taken??
 
Ozonelayer said:
Matador did not granulate trees as far as I know though.
Click to expand...
All I'm gonna say is...
jiharris0220 said:
Matador from last year completely debarked mesquite trees and a lot of the trees impacted simply disappeared without a trace.
View attachment 31563View attachment 31565
You can see in the two example photos and note the extreme ground scouring in the first photo, the likes of which I’ve haven’t seen since 2013 Moore.

What’s even more impressive is that the aforementioned mesquite trees weren’t even hit by the core but were still whittled down to bleached out sticks.

I can only assume the trees that were hit by core of this tornado at peak intensity are the ones that no longer exist.
Click to expand...
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
Lists are overrated, embrace maps instead
www.google.com

Every North American Violent Tornado of the 21st Century - Google My Maps

Every North American Violent Tornado of the 21st Century
www.google.com www.google.com

Tracks sourced from Tornado Archive, the 2025 DAT and (for a few) myself. Enjoy.
Click to expand...
I feel like, if there’s gonna be an EF6 ranking. Smithville absolutely needs to be the other one.
2011 El-Reno and smithville are my top 2 most brutally powerful tornadoes of all time.

The El-Reno tornado has the feat of heaviest object moved and destroyed along with a bunch of other general high end EF5 stuff.
The smithville tornado has the all time peak of just, complete erasure of everything in the core path down to the smallest pieces.
And a mythically violent inner core.
 
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As requested by @Lake Martin EF4 back on the SigTor thread...
An update to a random list of mine from 2023? Okay, here we go.

Bold+Italics: Officially rated EF5
Bold only: Not officially rated EF5, but considered EF5 by at least one reliable source
Italics only: Not officially rated EF5, but considered EF5 by me
Hyphen at end-: Probable EF5 intensity, but either very borderline or no genuine EF5 structural damage (or evidence inconclusive)

2000: N/A
2001: Seward-
2002: Van Wert
2003: Franklin-, Coleridge-
2004: Harper, Marion-, Hallam-
2005: Chaoyang-
2006: Westminster
2007: Greensburg, Elie, Trosudale-, Hopewell-, Macksville-
2008: Parkersburg, Picher, Arkansas VLT, Buttermilk-
2009: Dryden-
2010: Yazoo City-, Bowdle-, Tyler-
2011: Hackleburg, Rainsville, Philadelphia, Smithville, Joplin, Piedmont, New Wren, Tuscaloosa, Chickasha, Goldsby, Ringgold, Cordova, Ohatchee-, Berlin-, New Harmony-, Tipton-
2012: Henryville-, Crittenden-
2013: Moore, El Reno, Washington-, Granbury-
2014: Vilonia, Stanton, Louisville, Pilger-, Pilger East-, Alpena-
2015: Fairdale, Holly Springs, Cisco-
2016: Chapman, Wynnewood-, Funing-
2017: Canton-, Canton 2-
2018: Camp Crook
2019: N/A (note 1)
2020: Scarth (note 2), Bassfield-, Dalton-
2021: South Moravia-, Monette-, Mayfield-
2022: Keota-
2023: Didsbury (note 3), Matador-, Rolling Fork-
2024: Greenfield-
2025: Diaz-, Somerset-, Grinnell-, Plevna-

Note 1: I'm aware of the research paper that states the Greenwood Springs tornado had 'potential' EF5 intensity, but the same paper rated the worst of the damage EF4.
Note 2: Researchers unofficially rated this tornado EF5 based on vehicles being lofted, however, I think the official rating of EF3 is appropriate.
Note 3: Researchers unofficially rated this tornado EF5 based on the movement of a combine, however, I think the official rating of EF4 is appropriate.

Phew. I spent way too much time on this...
Now to get some sleep. Feel free to inquire about any tornado on this list or let me know if I missed any.
 
TH2002 said:
2009: Dryden-
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Huh?

Tell me more about this...I've never heard of it! Probably isn't even in my map either.

EDIT: Is this in reference to the West Texas EF2 on 4/29?

EDIT 2: Also...
TH2002 said:
2022: Keota-
Click to expand...
That outbreak sure felt like a year, but...

EDIT 3: Also surprised Marion 2004 didn't get the "italics treatment".
 
Last edited:
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