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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Aaron Rider said:
The New Wren tornado did not produce EF4 damage. The Tornado Talk article is now pay walled. What they found was extraordinary. https://talkweather.com/threads/significant-tornado-events.1276/page-193#post-59103

There is also nothing inherently wrong with using context for an upgrade when the context is blatantly absurd.
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In my opinion, New Wren's damage is indicative of EF4 intensity. My opinion is not objectively true, nor is anyone's opinion on New Wren when regarding a "deserved" rating for it. I do agree with the latter, though in Rainsville's case the contextual damage is not blatantly absurd and damage of its magnitude is seen quite often in EF4 rated tornadoes. Philadelphia is a bit of an outlier in general with its trench, which is easily the most impressive ever produced, but I personally don't think enough high-end damage was done to warrant an upgrade to EF5.
 
So you are of the opinion that contextual clues cannot be used to upgrade a tornado and can only be used to downgrade then?

We're going to very strongly disagree if that's the case.
 
Asha627 said:
In my opinion, New Wren's damage is indicative of EF4 intensity. My opinion is not objectively true, nor is anyone's opinion on New Wren when regarding a "deserved" rating for it. I do agree with the latter, though in Rainsville's case the contextual damage is not blatantly absurd and damage of its magnitude is seen quite often in EF4 rated tornadoes. Philadelphia is a bit of an outlier in general with its trench, which is easily the most impressive ever produced, but I personally don't think enough high-end damage was done to warrant an upgrade to EF5.
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Sorry but no.

the standard of the common law court system in criminal trials is beyond a reasonable doubt. New Wren was EF5 beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
andyhb said:
So you are of the opinion that contextual clues cannot be used to upgrade a tornado and can only be used to downgrade then?

We're going to very strongly disagree if that's the case.
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I believe contextual damage is a great thing to factor in to tornado ratings, and I don't think any downgrading should've been done due to contextual damage on any of the tornadoes being discussed now. I am saying that I don't think the contextual damage produced by both Rainsville and Philadelphia is enough to warrant an EF5 rating.
 
AJS said:
Somedays, I don’t even know which one was more intense. Some days I choose Bridge Creek, but some days I choose El Reno. The damage they both caused was unbelievable.
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I feel the same way, both of them are just utterly insane. I have a sort of top 5 list in terms of intensity, and I'm always interchanging the two in my head because they're both so impressive.
 
Asha627 said:
I feel the same way, both of them are just utterly insane. I have a sort of top 5 list in terms of intensity, and I'm always interchanging the two in my head because they're both so impressive.
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Which are your 5 in particular? For me, the top 5 that have always impressed the hell out of me have been:

Tri State
Jarrell
New Richmond
Bridge Creek/Moore 1999
Smithville
 
AJS said:
Which are your 5 in particular? For me, the top 5 that have always impressed the hell out of me have been:

Tri State
Jarrell
New Richmond
Bridge Creek/Moore 1999
Smithville
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In order, mine would be
El Reno 2011
Bridge Creek 1999
Moore 2013/Smithville 2011
Smithville 2011/Moore 2013
Jarrell 1997
 
AJS said:
Forgot about Moore 2013. Honestly, the damage the 2013 Moore tornado produced was not far off from 1999 at times. At the Orr Family Farm area, it was damn near identical.
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All around that area was just insane, it seems relatively forgotten sometimes. I've seen people call Moore 2013 a lower end EF5 before.
 
Alright, so I'mma just list my thoughts as we go. My thoughts in bold
Asha627 said:
Hopewell @Western_KS_Wx has stated that contextual evidence points to EF5 intensity
San Pedro Actually genuinely arguable, probably should have put a "(maybe)" next to it
Philadelphia Most certainly was EF5 intensity, the trenching turned out to be nothing special by itself but it did do quite the contextual damage in the area and of course it threw a trailer a fair distance without ground contact
New Wren Likely EF5 damage was flat out missed in the survey, go check Tornado Talk's article. It also threw a pickup truck nearly two miles
Rainsville  Officially rated EF5 for good reason, and the contextual damage in the vicinity of Skaggs Road was very extreme
Tipton Again also arguable but @Juliett Bravo Kilo (I think) mentioned it would've been EF5 had it not happened in 2011
El Reno I'm assuming this is 2013, if so then agreed no contextual or structural EF5 evidence, I solely gave it EF5 for the wind measurements
Wakefield Tree damage was allegedly quite intense but I think I even stated this one was iffy
Rochelle Multiple houses swept cleanly away, SmartCar hurled something like a mile, and the movement of the sidewalk all point to EF5 intensity
Holly Springs Like New Wren, likely EF5 damage was missed by the surveyors in the vicinity of Lamar Road
Camp Crook What this did to that farm was extraordinary and even Grazulis had it at 200 MPH EF4 at minimum
Monette Incredible tree damage in Arkansas, I think I posted some of it here myself
Sterling City Again, incredible contextual damage, to the point where I've seen the aftermath compared to a giant laser and a MOAB
A lot more on the list don't deserve the rating due to lack of EF5 damage, too many to list really. The only tornado post Moore 2013 that deserves EF5 is Funing.
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Hey....are you @HrizztoWX on Twitter? Because I see a lot of similarities to his thoughts on post 2013 EF5s (namely that the only worthy one was Funing). It definitely would make a lot of sense.

(And to be clear, this isn't a personal attack, just a question/observation.)
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
Alright, so I'mma just list my thoughts as we go. My thoughts in bold

Hey....are you @HrizztoWX on Twitter? Because I see a lot of similarities to his thoughts on post 2013 EF5s (namely that the only worthy one was Funing). It definitely would make a lot of sense.

(And to be clear, this isn't a personal attack, just a question/observation.)
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I'm not, though I do know him. I'm @EF4Tornado on Twitter.
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
Alright, so I'mma just list my thoughts as we go. My thoughts in bold

Hey....are you @HrizztoWX on Twitter? Because I see a lot of similarities to his thoughts on post 2013 EF5s (namely that the only worthy one was Funing). It definitely would make a lot of sense.

(And to be clear, this isn't a personal attack, just a question/observation.)
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I will note that I do agree on a good chunk of these tornadoes reaching EF5 intensity, but they didn't produce damage that would warrant a rating. The EF scale is a damage scale, and if no damage indicative of a certain rating is produced, then the tornado does not deserve the rating.
 
Asha627 said:
I will note that I do agree on a good chunk of these tornadoes reaching EF5 intensity, but they didn't produce damage that would warrant a rating. The EF scale is a damage scale, and if no damage indicative of a certain rating is produced, then the tornado does not deserve the rating.
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Alright. Just to make my position known, however, I am of the opinion that all of the tornadoes on this list (possibly in a few cases) caused either contextual or structural EF5 damage with the exceptions of El Reno and Greenfield.

From the catastrophic wipeout (including slabbed, apparently well built homes and disemboweled vehicles) in Westminster to the extreme Picher contexturals, to the rows and rows of unsurveyed slabs in Vilonia to Chapman's railroad and farmhouse, up to the house and contextuals in Matador which were so extreme I consider it one of the top 5 strongest tornadoes ever, all of these tornadoes likely reached EF5 intensity and caused damage to prove it. I respect your opinion, though. Different strokes for different folks and all that. :)
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
Alright. Just to make my position known, however, I am of the opinion that all of the tornadoes on this list (possibly in a few cases) caused either contextual or structural EF5 damage with the exceptions of El Reno and Greenfield.

From the catastrophic wipeout (including slabbed, apparently well built homes and disemboweled vehicles) in Westminster to the extreme Picher contexturals, to the rows and rows of unsurveyed slabs in Vilonia to Chapman's railroad and farmhouse, up to the house and contextuals in Matador which were so extreme I consider it one of the top 5 strongest tornadoes ever, all of these tornadoes likely reached EF5 intensity and caused damage to prove it. I respect your opinion, though. Different strokes for different folks and all that. :)
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I definitely agree with contextual in many cases, but there are a few iffy ones to me like Holly Springs. Picher is a tornado I've looked into very extensively and have over 1,500 damage photos of, and I will definitely say I'm sure it reached EF5 intensity. I interpreted your list as one of tornadoes deserving an EF5 *rating*, but if it was an intensity list it's much more agreeable :)
 
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