Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[andyhb]

The tree damage in Grinnell should be warranting higher than low-end EF2 in some of those areas.

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

Just posting for clarity in regards to the tweet I shared earlier. Tornado deaths have barely changed in the last 25 years. The 10 year average in 1985 was 55, 1995 was 54, 2005 was 58, 2015 was 110, and today it's 48.

 

[OH-IOan]

It’s a double wide mobile home that was loosely anchored to a concrete slab.

If what they're saying is true, it is indeed an anchored mobile home, but my issue with it is that the home was swept completely away. No trace of it or really anything else on the slab, and somehow a low-end EF2 rating is justified.

 

[tornado examiner]

A single EF3 di amongst all that damage is what we’ll be left with for Grinnell isn’t it?

 

[OH-IOan]

A single EF3 di amongst all that damage is what we’ll be left with for Grinnell isn’t it?

Unless another WFO intervenes, yes.

 

[N0mz]

Just posting for clarity in regards to the tweet I shared earlier. Tornado deaths have barely changed in the last 25 years. The 10 year average in 1985 was 55, 1995 was 54, 2005 was 58, 2015 was 110, and today it's 48.

View attachment 43110

2011 was really a year from hell man... Once in a generation outbreak + joplin and piedmont. Anyone know if there was something climate wise that year that led to the insane year, or just some really, really crazy luck?

 

[tornado examiner]

Track length for London was increased to 59miles

 

[tornado examiner]

Really wanna know what those EF4 di’s look like. Hope they upload them soon.

 

[AJS]

The London, KY tornado survey has actually been very well done so far. They have wasted no time in realizing the violence the tornado displayed both structurally and contextually.

 

[SouthFLwx]

Looks like a home in rural southeast Kentucky was swept away and wind-rowed by the London tornado. Definitely some impressive EF3-4 level damage.

 

[Maxis_s]

The more I see the damage out of Grinnell the more I am absolutely dumbfounded at how bad of a survey it is. Clear EF4 damage with high-end EF4/borderline EF5 contextuals being rated EF2 is just stupid. Easily the worst survey in NWS history

 

[AJS]

The more I see the damage out of Grinnell the more I am absolutely dumbfounded at how bad of a survey it is. Clear EF4 damage with high-end EF4/borderline EF5 contextuals being rated EF2 is just stupid. Easily the worst survey in NWS history

I never thought i’d see a survey as infuriating as Vilonia, but here we are…

To put into perspective how bad this survey is, it almost makes the Bakersfield, MO survey look good.

 

[tornado examiner]

Aaaahhh I wouldn’t go that far. For one, most of the structures still had some walls standing and more well built homes were largely just collapsed even when cored. Wind rowing also isn’t very impressive. It’s low end EF4 levels at an absolute max but very few of the di’s can realistically go that high except for tree damage, which is plentiful.
The issue is that most of this is being rated F**KING low end EF2 instead of at bare minimum high end EF3.

 

[AJS]

View attachment 43096
Ah... this is fine. (This is a real DI from the DAT, by the way, as much as it looks like vandalism!)

Okay hold up. In what way is this EF2 level damage!? This looks to be a leveled home with some granulation and severe debarking to represent! This is just so not okay!

 

[AJS]

Aaaahhh I wouldn’t go that far. For one, most of the structures still had some walls standing and more well built homes were barely collapsed even when cored. Wind rowing also isn’t very impressive. It’s low end EF4 levels at an absolute max but very few of the di’s can realistically go that high except for tree damage, which is plentiful.
The issue is that most of this is being rated F**KING low end EF2 instead of at bare minimum high end EF3.

That’s why it’s such an infuriating survey though. Sure, the home damage wasn’t the most impressive, but some of the contextual evidences clearly signal a violent tornado. And it’s being rated a low end EF2…

 

[tornado examiner]

That’s why it’s such an infuriating survey though. Sure, the home damage wasn’t the most impressive, but some of the contextual evidences clearly signal a violent tornado. And it’s being rated a low end EF2…

Indeed but saying it’s EF5 levels is just a big question mark. Outside of town maybe, inside town…not so much.

 

[AJS]

Indeed but saying it’s EF5 levels is just a big question mark. Outside of town maybe, inside town…not so much.

Outside of town 100%. That vegetation damage and ground scouring speaks for itself.

 

[slenker]

I'm of the opinion that Grinnell could not have been rated EF5 no matter what, based on what I'm seeing. The ground damage outside of town is incredibly impressive, yes, but I haven't seen what the ground surrounding said scouring normally looks like. The aerial imagery of the scouring I saw was from Plevna IIRC and that was incredibly impressive in its own right, but not EF5 worthy.

The damage in town is easily at least EF3 structural damage, with violent contextual damage. Nothing addresses that either, which is pretty obnoxious to see. Stating "home swept away" with an EF2 tag is incredibly weird - where's the justification? If it was a mobile home, then sure, but it was totally obliterated and windrowed - I'm really, really skeptical that a <130 mph wind is capable of totally obliterating a structure like that, even if it's sustained from slow movement. There's also scouring, a bit of granulation, and debarking within town - what more do you want this thing to do? Loft a 30000 lb tank or something? It's definitely deserving of at least a 165 mph EF3 mark, I wouldn't be nearly as mad at that. 140 EF3 is certainly way too low.

 

[andyhb]

I believe many of the DIs listed in Grinnell are mobile homes, but still, a) there appear to be a number of missing DIs given the path through town and b) the tree damage indicates significantly higher than low-end EF2.

 

[AJS]

I'm of the opinion that Grinnell could not have been rated EF5 no matter what, based on what I'm seeing. The ground damage outside of town is incredibly impressive, yes, but I haven't seen what the ground surrounding said scouring normally looks like. The aerial imagery of the scouring I saw was from Plevna IIRC and that was incredibly impressive in its own right, but not EF5 worthy.

The damage in town is easily at least EF3 structural damage, with violent contextual damage. Nothing addresses that either, which is pretty obnoxious to see. Stating "home swept away" with an EF2 tag is incredibly weird - where's the justification? If it was a mobile home, then sure, but it was totally obliterated and windrowed - I'm really, really skeptical that a <130 mph wind is capable of totally obliterating a structure like that, even if it's sustained from slow movement. There's also scouring, a bit of granulation, and debarking within town - what more do you want this thing to do? Loft a 30000 lb tank or something? It's definitely deserving of at least a 165 mph EF3 mark, I wouldn't be nearly as mad at that. 140 EF3 is certainly way too low.

Could not agree more. I’m of the opinion that Grinnell was without a doubt at some point capable of producing legit EF5 damage. Especially when it was well south of town producing that scouring/vegetation damage. But in town, you have mostly EF3 structural damage with some violent contextual’s. What has stood out to me has been the tree damage. There was some pretty severe debarking throughout town.