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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

AJS said:
I need to do some digging, but I once had access to a bunch of damage pics inside Henryville itself and some of the damage was actually quite a bit more impressive than people may think it was.
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Hmmmm. Are you able to provide a textual description while you look? I've had Henryville as a big wildcard in terms of if it deserved EF5 or not, and perhaps these photos can help me out on that front.
 
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Lake Martin EF4 said:
Hmmmm. Are you able to provide a textual description while you look? I've had Henryville as a big wildcard in terms of if it deserved EF5 or not, and perhaps these photos can help me out on that front.
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Absolutely. Let me do some digging to see if I can find them. Will provide a very good description too.
 
Lake Martin EF4 said:
No need to provide description WITH the photos lol, just a brief summary until you find them
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I managed to find a pic!

IMG_9046.jpeg
Can’t make heads and tails of what this is showing. Regardless, looks to show some pretty significant rowing and what could be granulated debris. Some homes appear to be leveled too.
 
A Guy said:
It wasn't Robinson, though he obviously agreed with those that did make the decision, leaving the cryptic comment that 'some people on the committee' felt houses shouldn't be able to get what became EF5. Those involved are public knowledge:

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I'll leave everyone here to guess who they think hold those views. There are actually tables in Appendix B of each of the experts' nominated windspeeds, I have a suspicion they are not in the same order as the list here.
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I really want to know who expert #4 was. They had by far the highest wind estimates. My guess would be Don Burgess. Respondent 6 had the second highest, so i'd bet that was Greg Forbes. Respondent 5 was pretty in-line with the engineers, but shot way above everyone to 300 mph for high rises, so i'd guess that was the architect. 1 has to be Doug Smith or Tim Marshall based on the fact they gave 98.2 mph estimates to both softwood and hardwood nubbing and debarking. That's gotta be the most absurd answer from the whole survey. It's interesting they had 3 engineers, 1 architect, and 2 meteorologists, but not a single physicist.
 
As we are stuck at home over the weekend here in France due to a small supercell outbreak (no tornadoes reported however!), there is some time to waste on the internet: thus I came across this list of highest (almost) g2g signatures, which I am sure some of you have seen before: https://www.spegweb.com/wx/tvs/index.php

One interesting thing that I notice from the list is that the top-of-the-list wedges in diameter, but not necessarily highly rated on the EF scale, seem to generate strong signatures. We see for example:
- El Reno '13 top the list,
- Hallam at #6,
- Trousdale (from the Greensburg supercell, with that estimated record width) at #11,
- what I assume is Bassfield-Soso at #17,
- Yazoo City at #33,
- Mulhall (post-Bridge Creek '99) at #41.
Even if some of those (notably Trousdale and Bassfield) are assumed to in reality have been close to or within EF5 windspeed range, there still seems to be some "TVS inflation" with those larger tornadoes. Is this phenomenon explainable in some way?

It is also quite interesting to note the order in which the 4/27 tornadoes appear, although this of course doesn't necessarily reflect reality:
Tuscaloosa EF4 (#2) > Cordova EF4 (#5) > Ohatchee EF4 (#15) > Pisgah EF4 (#18) > PCH EF5 (#21) > Smithville EF5 (#23) = Cullman-Arab EF4 (#23) > Tushka EF3 (#41) > Philadelphia EF5 (#60).

The list doesn't seem to feature any tornadoes after 2021. Have there been more recent signatures of note? I remember a few impressive ones from last year that ended up not really translating to damage on the ground. Matador was quite unimpressive on radar as far as I can remember.
 
Grand Poo Bah said:
Holy $hit... Not saying I don't believe you, but that's unbelievable! Do you have a copy of your calculations or notes so the other engineers in this thread can "peer review" it? lol

The thing that gets me is the tornadoes with the highest wind speed scans (Bridge Creek, Greenfield, El Reno) aren't even at the top of the list for worst damage ever observed. Hell, several scans between 200-250 mph were associated with (E)F2 tornadoes. One of those scans was associated with a TIV intercept on the ground (@TH2002 posted it in here a while back). Does anyone know where in the damage path the Bridge Creek-Moore winds were observed? Was it near the most intense damage in Bridge Creek?

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Pictures like this absolutely make me believe Piedmont could've had 500 mph winds. I can't wrap my mind around how that's even physically possible though. I suppose if the pressure is low enough it could be explained, as there'd be less resistance/friction. Kind of like the speeds airplanes reach at cruising altitude.
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I dont really think people realize how unreal this tornado was. I have archived things never before seen on it, and it's immense; we have not seen anything like it since. Like this tornado skinned people and through it's massive track, it was basically unwaveringly violent.

Here's some of the more extreme rare damage photos I have:4x4 rig photo.jpgBLckELNl.jpgcachedImage (1).PNGIMG_3223.JPGmiRqCr1l.jpgYbXeKujl.jpg
0yrrkuFl.jpg
 
NewFoundWeatherNerd said:
I dont really think people realize how unreal this tornado was. I have archived things never before seen on it, and it's immense; we have not seen anything like it since. Like this tornado skinned people and through it's massive track, it was basically unwaveringly violent.

Here's some of the more extreme rare damage photos I have:View attachment 40971View attachment 40972View attachment 40974View attachment 40975View attachment 40976View attachment 40977
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I’ve said it before, but I really do believe that El Reno/Piedmont 2011 produced the most extreme contextual damage out of any tornado throughout the 21st century.
 
ColdFront said:
Not off the top of my head, I’m sure they have and others here may be able to identify which ones. I only know of the well known tornados that stripped asphalt.
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The 1973 Pearsall-Frio County TX F4 tore 1-inches of asphalt off an airport runway as well.
 

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Asphalt/pavement stripping tends to be only done by higher-end tornadoes and typically indicates violent intensity, but it isn't a reliable indicator of intensity by itself, based on some of the sentiments I've seen echoed further back in this thread. I imagine it's heavily dependent on the quality/quantity of the substrate, the material itself, and debris rather than the actual windspeeds. The most impressive asphalt/pavement damage IMO is reserved to Henryville 2012 (which was extremely impressive to me), as well as the 4/27/11 EF5s, considering the forward speed they were moving at. Jarrell is also obviously supremely impressive too, but I'm inclined to believe that repeated debris impacts to roads contributed to the extreme damage to them. IIRC, further back in this thread there's supposedly been EF2 tornadoes that have caused considerable pavement/asphalt scouring with pretty lackluster contextuals coinciding with the damage. I'd have to find the source.
 
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Does that mean Henryville is especially impressive? There was no other debris in the area, and the craters left behind indicate those chunks were turned into missiles rather than just chipped away.

It's perplexing, though. How did it get ripped apart even on the side facing away from the wind? It seems physically impossible for wind to do this without any gap for air to enter and create leverage. That thing must've really been suckin'! Imagine hiding in a ditch and the road just ups and does this to you.

1746498098525.png
 
Sorry. Hopping off-topic for just a sec:

I went back and reread this thread a little bit, and realized I came in WAY too hot when I first got here last year. I was super confrontational right off the bat. I didn't bring an attitude that encouraged civil discussion or lively debate. I even carried some of that energy into 2025. By the time people had started calling me out for it I had already forgotten the behavior they were referring to. It sucks realizing now how right those people were.

To this community: I'm genuinely sorry, and I promise to be better.

This is no excuse, but last year was really bad in my neck of the woods (Iowa). A few of the strongest tornadoes hit way too close to home, and a few too many friends underestimated the danger they posed and almost got themselves hurt. In my mind, this was largely because they were being mislead about the strength of the forces at play, due in part to low EF ratings, with egregiously low wind speeds attached to them. The EF debate became personal to me, way more than I realized.

1746603724749.png

The only state with more tornadoes than Iowa was Texas and it's 4.7 times the size. In fact, Texas is still 1.5 times larger than Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois put together, and between the three states there were 387 tornadoes. The fact the biggest cities avoided a major disaster, and most of the tornadoes stayed in farm fields was a miracle. My passion is the result of a sense of urgency to get this system -- and the "public safety risk" I believe it's causing in it's current state -- fixed before our luck with tornadoes missing major metros ends.
 
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Grand Poo Bah said:
Sorry. Hopping off-topic for just a sec:

I went back and reread this thread a little bit, and realized I came in WAY too hot when I first got here last year. I was super confrontational right off the bat. I didn't bring an attitude that encouraged civil discussion or lively debate. I even carried some of that energy into 2025. By the time people had started calling me out for it I had already forgotten the behavior they were referring to. It sucks realizing now how right those people were.

To this community: I'm genuinely sorry, and I promise to be better.

This is no excuse, but last year was really bad in my neck of the woods (Iowa). A few of the strongest tornadoes hit way too close to home, and a few too many friends underestimated the danger they posed and almost got themselves hurt. In my mind, this was largely because they were being mislead about the strength of the forces at play, due in part to low EF ratings, with egregiously low wind speeds attached to them. The EF debate became personal to me, way more than I realized.

View attachment 41036

The only state with more tornadoes than Iowa was Texas and it's 4.7 times the size. In fact, Texas is still 1.5 times larger than Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois put together, and between the three states there were 387 tornadoes. The fact the biggest cities avoided a major disaster, and most of the tornadoes stayed in farm fields was a miracle. My passion is the result of a sense of urgency to get this system -- and the "public safety risk" I believe it's causing in it's current state -- fixed before our luck with tornadoes missing major metros ends.
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I'm new here, only starting to post in April following that big March outbreak. One of the best qualities someone can have is the ability to admit when they're wrong, and realize the mistake that was made. I can't speak for others, of course, but I applaud you for realizing what went wrong and what can be done better. We all get in that "mood" sometimes (trust me, I can be a nasty person sometimes when things aren't going right), but it's important to recognize when we get in that mood, so we can take a step back and recollect oursleves. :)

As for the map, why the heck did Ohio have so many tornadoes in 2024? Just bad luck?
 
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Grand Poo Bah said:
Sorry. Hopping off-topic for just a sec:

I went back and reread this thread a little bit, and realized I came in WAY too hot when I first got here last year. I was super confrontational right off the bat. I didn't bring an attitude that encouraged civil discussion or lively debate. I even carried some of that energy into 2025. By the time people had started calling me out for it I had already forgotten the behavior they were referring to. It sucks realizing now how right those people were.

To this community: I'm genuinely sorry, and I promise to be better.

This is no excuse, but last year was really bad in my neck of the woods (Iowa). A few of the strongest tornadoes hit way too close to home, and a few too many friends underestimated the danger they posed and almost got themselves hurt. In my mind, this was largely because they were being mislead about the strength of the forces at play, due in part to low EF ratings, with egregiously low wind speeds attached to them. The EF debate became personal to me, way more than I realized.

View attachment 41036

The only state with more tornadoes than Iowa was Texas and it's 4.7 times the size. In fact, Texas is still 1.5 times larger than Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois put together, and between the three states there were 387 tornadoes. The fact the biggest cities avoided a major disaster, and most of the tornadoes stayed in farm fields was a miracle. My passion is the result of a sense of urgency to get this system -- and the "public safety risk" I believe it's causing in it's current state -- fixed before our luck with tornadoes missing major metros ends.
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I’m glad you came to your senses my man and have learned some lessons! And it’s totally ok to go through times like that. It happens to everyone. Just know that anytime you are confronted, it’s never a personal attack, it’s an act of trying to make you a better person. :)
 
andyhb said:


A reminder that this tornado is one of the poorest ratings of the 21st Century.
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Peak La Plata syndrome was 2005-'06. I'm actually surprised we even got three F4s officially those two years (both the 2006 ones were in Missouri, but neither was on April 2nd...).

It seemed they were just biding their time waiting for the EF-scale to kick in the following year, and there was reason for optimism for it solving some of the problems with ratings with Greensburg and Parkersburg happening right out of the gate, but the same old issues quickly crept back in.
 
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