Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[Lake Martin EF4]

I agree that Matador was an exceptionally violent tornado and honestly produced some of the most extreme contextual damage you’ll probably ever see, but I don’t believe it was as violent as Jarrell. The destruction at Jarrell was a lot more complete and the aftermath legitimately resembled a landscape with nothing left. It took the definition of destroying everything in its path to a whole new level.

On paper I would agree......but I just can't get over that (roughly) 5 mph forward speed. Though the tornado was likely capable of causing F5 damage regardless, I do feel that the low forward speed amplified the damage a bit. It's still in my top 10, but barely, at #10.

Now if it were moving at a normal speed and did that sort of damage, THEN it would be a different story.

EDIT: And since I mentioned it, here's my top 10 lol. Still a WIP but my #1-4 and #9-10 are set in stone:

#1 - Piedmont 2011
#2 - Tri-State 1925
#3 - Bridge Creek 1999
#4 - Matador 2023
#5 - Bakersfield Valley 1990/Stratton 1990 (tie!)
#6 - Greensburg 2007/Parkersburg 2008 (tie!)
#7 - New Richmond 1899/Moore 2013 (tie!)
#8 - San Justo 1973
#9 - Smithville 2011
#10 - Jarrell 1997

 

[A Guy]

Hi, this is my first post but I've been lurking here since around the Rolling Fork '23 tornado.

I've been wondering about Fujita's estimation of the Goessel winds using helicoidal tracks on the ground. Has anyone here read the paper in detail to figure out the calculation?

If you simplify a lot of factors, a back-of-the-envelope calculation can give you the rotational speed of a tornado if an object (satellite tornado, subvortex, something scraping the ground...) is spinning around its centre and leaving a mark on the ground, provided you have:
- the forward speed of the tornado,
- the distance between your object and the centre of the tornado,
- a measurement of the (smallest) distance between two periods of the mark on the ground (which is called a trochoid curve!)

As one can picture by imagining an object rotating around a slowly moving point, if the object is spinning very fast then you'll obtain almost full circles close to each other. If the track looks like this, and the circles have a large radius while the tornado moves forward quickly, this suggests a violent tornado. See the image with some curves plotted depending on the rotational speed.

The Goessel image attached is indeed very impressive in that regard, if the tornado was moving forward at a decent speed at the time the image was taken. This also doesn't even take into account the rotational speed of the subvortex itself!

Of course the general picture is more complicated as tornadoes don't have a homogeneous forward speed (or even a completely linear track), and subvortices themselves have very chaotic movement rather than a path following the "ideal" curve, see attached image again.

I know that many tornadoes over the years, even EF1's, have had marks like this. It's not surprising since you really need all three parameters (forward speed, 1/(distance between periods), radius) to be high, for example a satellite rotating around a 10mph tornado will leave a completely circular scar if the tornado itself is not moving. Are there examples where this rough calculation could be done?

The paper's here, Fujita explains it, with (most of) the maths from page 63 onwards.

I talked about it in some posts (1, 2, 3) here. It's uncertain if the marks can represent speed. I link a thesis that showed they are due to corner flow rather than subvortices specifically. The writer failed to find a way to determine speeds but didn't try manual calculations of single loops, and unfortunately, didn't conclude whether way the marks are formed could be considered 'point like' enough to do so.

 

[AJS]

On paper I would agree......but I just can't get over that (roughly) 5 mph forward speed. Though the tornado was likely capable of causing F5 damage regardless, I do feel that the low forward speed amplified the damage a bit. It's still in my top 10, but barely, at #10.

Now if it were moving at a normal speed and did that sort of damage, THEN it would be a different story.

EDIT: And since I mentioned it, here's my top 10 lol. Still a WIP but my #1-4 and #9-10 are set in stone:

#1 - Piedmont 2011
#2 - Tri-State 1925
#3 - Bridge Creek 1999
#4 - Matador 2023
#5 - Bakersfield Valley 1990/Stratton 1990 (tie!)
#6 - Greensburg 2007/Parkersburg 2008 (tie!)
#7 - New Richmond 1899
#8 - San Justo 1973
#9 - Smithville 2011
#10 - Jarrell 1997

That list is pretty good. I’d move Smithville a lot higher up though.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

That list is pretty good. I’d move Smithville a lot higher up though.

My reasoning for Smithville being at #9 is actually pretty similar to @phant's reasoning, so I'll just quote that one:

1 - My reasoning for Smithville being at #9 is that although it did cause very impressive damage and did most of the feats that other tornadoes have listed under them, besides granulation I can make arguments about those above that of them having more extreme cases of these damages. For example, vehicular damage from Smithville was obviously very bad, vehicles were crumpled and folded into piles of metal, thrown huge distances, and had reports of vehicles never being found. First off, essentially every tornado above it (besides Tri-State and New Richmond) has worse vehicle damage than Smithville (I personally do not believe the missing vehicle claims, unless I see actual documentation of this, which I haven't for Smithville). For vegetation damage, almost all of Smithville's extremely impressive debarking came from softwood trees iirc, and basically all the tornadoes above it have cases of them debarking much stronger wood types. Granulation Smithville is obviously near or at the top, it's some of the worst I've seen, and for structural damage it's up there too, but due to everything else lacking in my opinion, and the fact that I consider everything to do with a tornado in its place among my list, I have it at #9.

EDIT: I also find it funny that you missed the hottest take on the entire list that I may be the only person on Earth to hold. I'll let you figure it out lol

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

Sure thing!

Barnesville

Good lawd, bless me!! That is some incredible looking damage!



Pictures like this one make me wonder if the inside of some tornadoes have a low pressure gradient so severe it's like an airplane experiencing catastrophic depressurization at 35,000 feet. It's easy getting desensitized to ground scouring and debarking, but this is nuts. I don't see any notches out of those trunks from debris impacts, and i see trees with their top branches left intact instead of lower ones like you typically see. That makes me think this tornado was RIPPING those thangs.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

Good lawd, bless me!! That is some incredible looking damage!

View attachment 40728

Pictures like this one make me wonder if the inside of some tornadoes have a low pressure gradient so severe it's like an airplane experiencing catastrophic depressurization at 35,000 feet. It's easy getting desensitized to ground scouring and debarking, but this is nuts. I don't see any notches out of those trunks from debris impacts, and i see trees with their top branches left intact instead of lower ones like you typically see. That makes me think this tornado was RIPPING those thangs.

Ah, yes, the Pressure Drop. Fun fact - that was reported in the Hackleburg tornado of 2011, and it caused tear ducts to rupture! That tornado is my #11, BTW, and to be honest that is partly because of how horribly it treated its victims. @joshoctober16 did a post on Reddit that discussed it, and, well....it was bad.

Spoiler: WARNING: NSFW/NSFL

people were found having all there clothes removed and their skin torn off, there eyes torn out of there heads.

some had all their Body orifice (yes even thoes parts...) shoved with debris and mud... some were torn inside out. i also herd from some that the damage on there bodies look so bad they look like a burnt victim.

even people in a underground storm shelter that survived and were only in the outer edge had there tear ducts ruptured by the pressure (this is the smallest human body orifice)

the worst of the worst was a bunch of people had been torn apart , body parts were found all over the place, i remember in one form hearing the death count was expected to be over 200+ but was later found out they were over counting forum different body parts from the same people.

I also had a personal correspondence with someone who was on the scene in the aftermath. His reports - the normal Jarrellization of the victims (skinning, etc.), but also one particular woman who was found with all her limbs wrapped around branches of a tree and her eyes torn out.

In summary: I think High Risk Chris was right calling Hackleburg "The Unsurvivable Tornado"

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

EDIT: I also find it funny that you missed the hottest take on the entire list that I may be the only person on Earth to hold. I'll let you figure it out lol

That's genuinely one of the hottest tornado takes i've ever seen. Maybe in the world.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

That's genuinely one of the hottest tornado takes i've ever seen. Maybe in the world.

Ha, glad you noticed.....or is this a different hot take I didn't notice? (Clarify in DMs lol, I don't want the secret to be spoiled )

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

Ah, yes, the Pressure Drop. Fun fact - that was reported in the Hackleburg tornado of 2011, and it caused tear ducts to rupture! That tornado is my #11, BTW, and to be honest that is partly because of how horribly it treated its victims. @joshoctober16 did a post on Reddit that discussed it, and, well....it was bad.



In summary: I think High Risk Chris was right calling Hackleburg "The Unsurvivable Tornado"

Woah.... that's... I.... WOW...

Spoiler: his hot take

And you got mesquite trees rated 7 places higher than THAT? What's wrong wichyu!?

Here's a list of the top 10 tornadoes with the most kinetic energy according to this study



Basically the equivalent of 5.6 Hiroshima bombs. And this is only using EF scale wind values to make calculations (which has max damage rated at 210 mph lol). Who knows what the value would be if true wind speeds were used.

 

[Lake Martin EF4]

Woah.... that's... I.... WOW...

Spoiler: his hot take

And you got mesquite trees rated 7 places higher than THAT? What's wrong wichyu!?

Here's a list of the top 10 tornadoes with the most kinetic energy according to this study

View attachment 40729

Basically the equivalent of 5.6 Hiroshima bombs. And this is only using EF scale wind values to make calculations (which has max damage rated at 210 mph lol). Who knows what the value would be if true wind speeds were used.

Matador wasn't the hot take lol (though it is A hot take). My hot take was that Greensburg was stronger than Jarrell and Smithville.

 

[AJS]

Woah.... that's... I.... WOW...

Spoiler: his hot take

And you got mesquite trees rated 7 places higher than THAT? What's wrong wichyu!?

Here's a list of the top 10 tornadoes with the most kinetic energy according to this study

View attachment 40729

Basically the equivalent of 5.6 Hiroshima bombs. And this is only using EF scale wind values to make calculations (which has max damage rated at 210 mph lol). Who knows what the value would be if true wind speeds were used.

Why is Yazoo City so high up? I wouldn’t have expected that at all.

 

[AJS]

Matador wasn't the hot take lol (though it is A hot take). My hot take was that Greensburg was stronger than Jarrell and Smithville.

Well to be fair, some fantastic research done by @Western_KS_Wx has shown that Greensburg produced some of the most impressive contextual damage ever photographed in some areas and it was without a doubt one of the most violent in history. But that is a hot take to be above Smithville lol.

 

[A Guy]

Why is Yazoo City so high up? I wouldn’t have expected that at all.

Long and wide.

 

[AJS]

Long and wide.

I’m holding back so hard to not say the joke I wanna say lol.

 

[AJS]

Long and wide.

But yeah. I forgot how wide that beast was.

 

[NewFoundWeatherNerd]

So far the rating of the Hyannis/Ashby NE tornado(4/27/25) is EF1; I do not feel that's accurate, even with the minimal damage it did. The derailed train was 130 cars long, transporting coal, and had cars with their wheels removed; the Selmer TN EF3 derailed a train as well, which was smaller than the Hyannis train.
This tornado also killed multiple heads of livestock, and threw ~two haybales into a lake. This might be Fyre, Sears, George, or a few of the unnamed lakes nearby (or wetlands); it has been proven that Haybale loft distance can be a way to determine true tornadic windspeeds. It removed the roof and some exterior walls of a farmstead, which depending on structure quality, that is considered significant (EF2-EF3) damage.

Most of the path remains unseen, it's possible there is significant vegetation damage or ground scouring somewhere; we will just have to wait for sentinel satellite imagery.

 

[andyhb]

So far the rating of the Hyannis/Ashby NE tornado(4/27/25) is EF1; I do not feel that's accurate, even with the minimal damage it did. The derailed train was 130 cars long, transporting coal, and had cars with their wheels removed; the Selmer TN EF3 derailed a train as well, which was smaller than the Hyannis train.
This tornado also killed multiple heads of livestock, and threw ~two haybales into a lake. This might be Fyre, Sears, George, or a few of the unnamed lakes nearby (or wetlands); it has been proven that Haybale loft distance can be a way to determine true tornadic windspeeds. It removed the roof and some exterior walls of a farmstead, which depending on structure quality, that is considered significant (EF2-EF3) damage.

Most of the path remains unseen, it's possible there is significant vegetation damage or ground scouring somewhere; we will just have to wait for sentinel satellite imagery.

Wasn't it rated EF2, 130 mph?

 

[NewFoundWeatherNerd]

Wasn't it rated EF2, 130 mph?

Oh it was? Good; it's not plotted on the DAT so I was going off what the IEM bot had posted. I may have missed this!
Either way; this tornado was strong, even with the small amount of information we have. Im rather convinced that if this tornado hit anything, it would've been a disaster of EF4+ proportions; the fact it hit basically NOTHING makes the damage "deceptively" weak; debris absolutely play a part in damage.

 

[NewFoundWeatherNerd]

Well to be fair, some fantastic research done by @Western_KS_Wx has shown that Greensburg produced some of the most impressive contextual damage ever photographed in some areas and it was without a doubt one of the most violent in history. But that is a hot take to be above Smithville lol.

I really do hate the claim that Smithville produced damage any similar to Jarrell. It didnt; plain and clear, it didnt do anything remotely like it.
Smithville is BAD, easily up there; but it's not Jarrell.
Jarrell moved at 5-15mph forward, but even tornadoes which moved at similar pace did not do what Jarrell did. The ONLY comparison to Jarrell that can reasonably be made is Harper KS 2004. Bridgecreek and Chickasha did worse damage than Smithville IMO; Chickasha not getting EF5 is criminal, threw 7-feet of debris against a fence, cracked a solid concrete dome, and slathered everything in a 1-inch thick layer of red clay.
The Smithville glazing removes the actual incredible feats of the tornado; as it is one of the upper echelon events of our lifetimes. It WAS an incredibly strong tornado with immense damage; but it's not Jarrell, its not Harper, and its not Bridgecreek, nor Chickasaw, Piedmont, or even Guin.

Jarrell ripped up 8 inches of hard Texas river soil, without rain saturation beforehand; due to the tornado's SW movement, the soil had not been saturated by rain before impact. It threw two live goldfish into a drainage ditch, only for them to be discovered by search and rescue at the scene; it removed slabs, it did things done once, and never again. It is in a league of it's own, and don't let hype, bias, and desire to have a new "ruler of them all" tornado tell you otherwise. Jarrell is Jarrell; there is no comparison.

 

[OH-IOan]

Has a study ever been done on whether the extreme damage done by Jarrell was based on slow movement or wind speeds? It'd be interesting to see. Also, an NIST study found that Jarrell produced F3-maximum damage, although I don't necessarily agree with that. Can be found here.