Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[AJS]

Ok now I'm beyond curious... if you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you were using that account?

I first joined this forum when I was 18, and let me just say that some of my old posts are cringeworthy to read now lol

I am 19 now. So I was around 15-16 years old.

 

[AJS]

Since the 2 year anniversary of the Rolling Fork tornado is coming up, I figured i’d post a couple of pictures that truly capture the nightmare of a monster this tornado was.

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

View attachment 34393View attachment 34394View attachment 34395View attachment 34396View attachment 34397View attachment 34398Since the 2 year anniversary of the Rolling Fork tornado is coming up, I figured i’d post a couple of pictures that truly capture the nightmare of a monster this tornado was.

That debris granulation is insane. The town looks like it was mulched.

 

[joshoctober16]

Per WeatherBrains a few weeks ago, DOW/Doppler wind speed measurements will NOT be included in the new EF scale revision.

This came straight from one of Wurman’s research partners.


Edit: WeatherBrains993, 27:10 timestamp. Jennifer Walton gets a text from Dr. Karen Kosiba discussing this.

oh boy , ignoring a bunch of clear data when there isnt anything to hit....

 

[TH2002]

I am 19 now. So I was around 15-16 years old.

When I first joined TW... I was not the most educated on tornado damage, to put it lightly. I used to unironically believe Naperville 2021 was an EF4 and that Coal City 2015 was at least a high-end EF4 bordering on EF5 intensity, lol.

I also had a poor understanding of foundation types and contextual damage, and one day picked a stupid fight with @andyhb about some tornado videos I posted.

Anyways, now that I'm done embarrassing myself, holy crap at those Rolling Fork photos. Reiterating what @Grand Poo Bah said above, the debris granulation was indeed textbook, particularly on the SW side of town where a row of homes was smeared:

 

[joshoctober16]

Parkersburg??? I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but that’s not a fact, but an assumption with nothing tangible to support it beyond your own personal interpretation of the situation. You have absolutely no objective way of knowing what would happen. It would be reasonable to infer that Rainsville, El Reno-Piedmont, and Philadelphia may end up on the chopping block due to use of non established DIs, but every other tornado produced the simple textbook definition of EF5 damage: Well-built structures slabbed with extreme contextual damage to support it. That’s what I go by, that’s what everyone else on this forum who is interested in this topic goes by, and is still the most agreed-upon definition of EF5 damage. To suggest Smithville wouldn’t make the cut, yet Parkersburg would is a show of subjectivity and overconfidence in your own personal viewpoint, period.

You’re entitled to your opinions, but to confidently say “this is what would happen” is asserting that your opinion and any prediction you base it off of is fact, which it isn’t. You’re blurring the line between personal opinion and fact, repeatedly.

well here are the reasons for each, then again some need some tweaks.

the biggest problem is homes hit by debris and trees still standing 100 yards away problem .....

 

[Brice W]

I am 19 now. So I was around 15-16 years old.

ill be turning 19 on the 16th of this month. I’ve been around this thread since 2019. I’ve had a couple accounts. I can safely say like @TH2002 I had some cringe-worthy moments in my posts too lol. It happens when you’re young.

 

[buckeye05]

View attachment 34399
well here are the reasons for each, then again some need some tweaks.

the biggest problem is homes hit by debris and trees still standing 100 yards away problem .....

Are you kidding me? Completely absurd reasoning, straight up. Here’s why, even though I just explained it.

This is ENTIRELY based on the false assumption that every single WFO is operating under the same asinine logic that LZK was when John Robinson was warning coordinator, which is total BS. It is WELL established that WFOs do not conduct surveys as a homogeneous entity, or follow the same set of standards. Most users here can tell you which offices are more liberal and willing to factor in contextual evidence for upgrading, versus the ones who don’t and make conservative calls. That is a problem in itself that is often discussed here on this very forum, but for the argument you are presenting valid, you would have to establish that there is TOTAL consistency among rating standards at every WFO, and that every one is equally conservative (despite liberal or highly intuitive surveys from OUN, FFC, and JAN). So which is it? All WFOs are operating under the same standards at a 2014 LZK level of incompetence? Or they are all applying the scale differently, which is WELL-established and has been discussed at length, leading to ratings like the Newnan and Marietta EF4s? You simply can’t have it both ways at the same time. Vilonia set a terrible standard, but that level of idiocy is NOT being applied across the board, and that is easily demonstrable with the few examples I listed, and there are PLENTY more. I’m trying to be patient and civil, but come on people….use your brains and reasoning skills, and stop regurgitating YouTube content.

So again, I ask, are all WFO survey teams suddenly the same now, and the office-to-office consistency problems we have discussed here SO MANY times have suddenly vanished? Is John Robinson also secretly the lead surveyor at every office now? Ridiculous, and devoid of logic and basic observations…

 

[TH2002]

Are you kidding me? Completely absurd reasoning, straight up. Here’s why, even though I just explained it.

This is ENTIRELY based on the false assumption that every single WFO is operating under the same asinine logic that LZK was when John Robinson was warning coordinator, which is total BS. It is WELL established that WFOs do not conduct surveys as a homogeneous entity, or follow the same set of standards. Most users here can tell you which offices are more liberal and willing to factor in contextual evidence for upgrading, versus the ones who don’t and make conservative calls. That is a problem in itself that is often discussed here on this very forum, but for the argument you are presenting valid, you would have to establish that there is TOTAL consistency among rating standards at every WFO, and that every one is equally conservative (despite liberal or highly intuitive surveys from OUN, FFC, and JAN). So which is it? All WFOs are operating under the same standards at a 2014 LZK level of incompetence? Or they are all applying the scale differently, which is WELL-established and has been discussed at length, leading to ratings like the Newnan and Marietta EF4s? You simply can’t have it both ways at the same time. Vilonia set a terrible standard, but that level of idiocy is NOT being applied across the board, and that is easily demonstrable with the few examples I listed, and there are PLENTY more. I’m trying to be patient and civil, but come on people….use your brains and reasoning skills, and stop regurgitating YouTube content.

So again, I ask, are all WFO survey teams suddenly the same now, and the office-to-office consistency problems we have discussed here SO MANY times have suddenly vanished? Is John Robinson also secretly the lead surveyor at every office now? Ridiculous, and devoid of logic and basic observations…

I would try to use my brain, but lost mine a long time ago. Sorry.

But on a serious note, remember this? The person you're replying to created that table... what do you expect?

 

[buckeye05]

I would try to use my brain, but lost mine a long time ago. Sorry.

But on a serious note, remember this? The person you're replying to created that table... what do you expect?

Well that certainly explains the lack of reason and logic (I assumed this was pulled from a YouTube creator).

That raises a second question, which is: Why is the above user presenting something posted by that particular person as remotely credible, logical, or valid? Give me a break.

Ya’ll are trying to spike my blood pressure tonight apparently.

 

[buckeye05]

Also in what alternate reality did Hackleburg-Phil Campbell NOT produce ground scouring?

 

[buckeye05]

When I first joined TW... I was not the most educated on tornado damage, to put it lightly. I used to unironically believe Naperville 2021 was an EF4 and that Coal City 2015 was at least a high-end EF4 bordering on EF5 intensity, lol.

I also had a poor understanding of foundation types and contextual damage, and one day picked a stupid fight with @andyhb about some tornado videos I posted.

Anyways, now that I'm done embarrassing myself, holy crap at those Rolling Fork photos. Reiterating what @Grand Poo Bah said above, the debris granulation was indeed textbook, particularly on the SW side of town where a row of homes was smeared:

But Caleb Routt says that the size of the debris doesn’t matter when it comes to identifying debris granulation. So how can “textbook” debris granulation be a thing?

(Sorry for the smart*** energy, ya’ll got me in a mood now)

 

[TH2002]

Also in what alternate reality did Hackleburg-Phil Campbell NOT produce ground scouring?

Not to mention the assumptions that Greensburg didn't produce granulation and Joplin didn't destroy any well-built homes are complete bogus...

 

[TH2002]

But Caleb Routt says that the size of the debris doesn’t matter when it comes to identifying debris granulation. So how can “textbook” debris granulation be a thing?

(Sorry for the smart*** energy, ya’ll got me in a mood now)

Happens to me every single day. Can't focus on anything because my mind is constantly racing in every given moment of my existence.

Anyhow, something about watching utter nonsense get torn apart is so satisfying. You should consider watching The Computer Clan. Krazy Ken will nurture your bullshit detectors even further.

 

[TH2002]

Also, I think I can safely say that you've started a riot, buckeye. The responses to your posts will be awfully fun to watch.. but hey, that's why this thread is called the EF ratings debate thread, right?

 

[buckeye05]

Eh we’ll see what happens. I’m happy to stay level headed and chill as long as we remain away from teenage WX Twitter/YouTube comments level discourse and somewhat on the tracks of reason, but the little list contained within post #1,166 was a full-on derailment. I’m not the kind to hold back when that happens.

 

[tornado examiner]

Do you have any photos of this possibly? Would be very interested to see the home.

I know of ground level photo’s but I can’t find them on google. But it’s too the right of that clear subfloor slab near center of the image. That was a subfloor swept home on concrete or cement block wall foundation. It seems like the entire house wass torn off the foundation and thrown as no debris remains anywhere near it. Anchoring however….im not sure about. But it would also appear that the back foundation wall collapsed.

This home doesn’t have a DI on it. But it is where the tornado peaked on the damage survey.

This was the home before the tornado.

 

[tornado examiner]

The whole Parkersburg thing is basically saying that the EF5 rating is as air tight as it gets.
There are no excuse’s any surveying office can use to downgrade that tornado within reason.
It will stand up to the most amount of scrutiny.

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

View attachment 34402
I know of ground level photo’s but I can’t find them on google. But it’s too the right of that clear subfloor slab near center of the image. That was a subfloor swept home on concrete or cement block wall foundation. It seems like the entire house wass torn off the foundation and thrown as no debris remains anywhere near it. Anchoring however….im not sure about. But it would also appear that the back foundation wall collapsed.

This home doesn’t have a DI on it. But it is where the tornado peaked on the damage survey.
View attachment 34403
This was the home before the tornado.

Here you go!







Plus a few other scoured foundations for good measure

 

[Grand Poo Bah]

These pics aren't even half of the houses the tornado demolished like this. It tore through the entire town in less than 60 seconds with the strength of a nuclear shockwave. When people disrespect what this tornado did they lose all credibility to me.