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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

4. Vilonia 2014 - killed 16 and injured 200. Could easily be #2 on this list based on sheer strength. Some of the damage it did was incredibly impressive. Don't have to go back very far in this thread to find dozens of pics, so i'll just post the most intense ones.

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28 homes were destroyed in one subdivision. It was determined they weren't properly anchored, but they were also brick, which requires much stronger winds to slab than other building material. Then, of course, you have the notorious image of the home with anchor bolts in both its interior AND exterior walls.
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"This point received the maximum damage rating as the walls were connected to the sill plate with nuts, bolts, and washers. An EF5 rating was not assigned because: Ratings are not normally assigned based on one only structure, the house was hit by the debris from the downtown buildings so there was uncertainty as to how much damage was done by the tornado itself vs. flying debris, and some trees (tall and skinny) were still standing along a ditch about 100 yards away."
-NWS Little Rock
"Well respected structural engineer, meteorologist and storm chaser Tim Marshall was in Arkansas in mid-May, 2014 to survey damage [...] On May 16th, the National Weather Service in Little Rock (Pulaski County) was informed by Mr. Marshall that he agreed with the EF4 rating assigned to the local April 27th twister."

5. Greenfield 2024 - DOW recorded wind speeds of 318 mph 40 meters above the ground. It's about the closest to the ground readings you'll ever get from radar, and 318 mph was the wind speed of the tornado as it rolled through town. I will 100% die on this hill. Not to mention it was less than 100m wide and moving at 55 mph The fact so many are willing to dismiss these readings because a small handful of engineers turn their nose up at it will always irritate me beyond belief.

People also regularly dismiss Midwest tornadoes because of low death tolls and basements. If a tornado passes through a densely populated area, it's bound to leave behind more piles of debris, than rural ones, and homes with basements aren't as impressive on satellite because (obviously) debris will naturally collect in holes in the ground. The scar this tornado left behind is still one of the most impressive you'll ever see. This tornado wiped away 40 homes from my last count, and left behind either clean subfloor, or snapped basement walls. Several of the homes were well built.
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i've posted tons of pics just a few pages back in this thread.


6. Rolling Fork 2023 - killed 17 and injured 165.
 
4. Vilonia 2014 - killed 16 and injured 200. Could easily be #2 on this list based on sheer strength. Some of the damage it did was incredibly impressive. Don't have to go back very far in this thread to find dozens of pics, so i'll just post the most intense ones.

View attachment 34306View attachment 34307

View attachment 34309View attachment 34310

28 homes were destroyed in one subdivision. It was determined they weren't properly anchored, but they were also brick, which requires much stronger winds to slab than other building material. Then, of course, you have the notorious image of the home with anchor bolts in both its interior AND exterior walls.
View attachment 34311

"This point received the maximum damage rating as the walls were connected to the sill plate with nuts, bolts, and washers. An EF5 rating was not assigned because: Ratings are not normally assigned based on one only structure, the house was hit by the debris from the downtown buildings so there was uncertainty as to how much damage was done by the tornado itself vs. flying debris, and some trees (tall and skinny) were still standing along a ditch about 100 yards away."
-NWS Little Rock
"Well respected structural engineer, meteorologist and storm chaser Tim Marshall was in Arkansas in mid-May, 2014 to survey damage [...] On May 16th, the National Weather Service in Little Rock (Pulaski County) was informed by Mr. Marshall that he agreed with the EF4 rating assigned to the local April 27th twister."

5. Greenfield 2024 - DOW recorded wind speeds of 318 mph 40 meters above the ground. It's about the closest to the ground readings you'll ever get from radar, and 318 mph was the wind speed of the tornado as it rolled through town. I will 100% die on this hill. Not to mention it was less than 100m wide and moving at 55 mph The fact so many are willing to dismiss these readings because a small handful of engineers turn their nose up at it will always irritate me beyond belief.

People also regularly dismiss Midwest tornadoes because of low death tolls and basements. If a tornado passes through a densely populated area, it's bound to leave behind more piles of debris, than rural ones, and homes with basements aren't as impressive on satellite because (obviously) debris will naturally collect in holes in the ground. The scar this tornado left behind is still one of the most impressive you'll ever see. This tornado wiped away 40 homes from my last count, and left behind either clean subfloor, or snapped basement walls. Several of the homes were well built.
View attachment 34319View attachment 34320
View attachment 34329View attachment 34325

i've posted tons of pics just a few pages back in this thread.


6. Rolling Fork 2023 - killed 17 and injured 165.
Holy excrement at some of those Vilonia pictures.
 
Vilonia should top the list imo. Also Chickasha-Blanchard is glaringly absent from this discussion.

I don’t take issue with the Rolling Fork or Greenfield ratings though, at least in terms of ratings ascertained purely via damage analysis. The survey teams really did their due diligence in both of those cases (JAN especially does a great job), and made it clear that they were as thorough as possible. Greenfield was obviously an EF5 given the insane mobile radar readings, but it’s one of those cases where I can’t nail down a single damage point that confirms it without a reasonable doubt.
 
These tornadoes have absolutely no excuse being rated below EF5.

Vilonia.
Chickasha/Blanchard.
Rochelle.
Goldsby/Washington.
Chapman.
Tuscaloosa.
New Wren.
Honestly, Holly Springs is one that doesn’t get brought up enough and I have to thank @TH2002 for his wonderful post a while back about the true intensity of this monster.
 
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These EF4s have absolutely no excuse being rated EF4

Vilonia.
Chickasha/Blanchard.
Rochelle.
Goldsby/Washington.
Chapman.
Tuscaloosa.
New Wren.
Honestly, Holly Springs is one that doesn’t get brought up enough and I have to thank @TH2002 for his wonderful post a while back about the true intensity of this monster.
New Wren was rated EF3
 
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Vilonia should top the list imo. Also Chickasha-Blanchard is glaringly absent from this discussion.

I don’t take issue with the Rolling Fork or Greenfield ratings though, at least in terms of ratings ascertained purely via damage analysis. The survey teams really did their due diligence in both of those cases (JAN especially does a great job), and made it clear that they were as thorough as possible. Greenfield was obviously an EF5 given the insane mobile radar readings, but it’s one of those cases where I can’t nail down a single damage point that confirms it without a reasonable doubt.
Interesting bit about Rolling Fork. I happened to be scrolling on Wikipedia out of pure boredom earlier and came across this.



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Hard to leave that can of worms unopened because I'm genuinely curious now... why so? I've conversed with him on multiple occasions and he's always seemed nice and willing to answer my questions. If you aren't comfortable sharing your views publicly then please consider sending me a PM, I'd love to hear your reasons.
Regarding what @andyhb told me about Marshall, all I'll say is that I do not wish to share it publicly. I'll leave it up to Andy to decide if he wishes to (privately) share his findings with anyone else.
 
Vilonia should top the list imo. Also Chickasha-Blanchard is glaringly absent from this discussion.

I don’t take issue with the Rolling Fork or Greenfield ratings though, at least in terms of ratings ascertained purely via damage analysis. The survey teams really did their due diligence in both of those cases (JAN especially does a great job), and made it clear that they were as thorough as possible. Greenfield was obviously an EF5 given the insane mobile radar readings, but it’s one of those cases where I can’t nail down a single damage point that confirms it without a reasonable doubt.
Might be a silly question. Was there any houses in Greenfield that had the chance to get an EF5 rating had it been hit? Greenfield did of course meet the wind requirements but I remember talking about it in the severe threat discussion for it. I just don’t recall seeing a house that was “had it been hit head on, it would’ve gotten an EF5 rating.”
 
I’m actually in support of this idea. Only condition is there’s a few 190 MPH EF4s that I’d personally bump down to 185 MPH if such a change is eventually made.
I am also in support of this idea too. However, I do feel like there are some EF4s that did receive an appropriate 190 MPH rating. The most perfect example I can think of is Washington, IL 2013.
 
I am also in support of this idea too. However, I do feel like there are some EF4s that did receive an appropriate 190 MPH rating. The most perfect example I can think of is Washington, IL 2013.
Yeah exactly. That one was the very definition of “high-end EF4” imo. 190 MPH does feel right, but they’d be forced to bump it to around 185 MPH to keep it within the EF4 range. Maybe call it 188 MPH or something? Idk.

Flat Rock, AL, Dunlap, TN, Apison, TN, and Rolling Fork, MS would also likely deserve the same treatment imo.
 
Might be a silly question. Was there any houses in Greenfield that had the chance to get an EF5 rating had it been hit? Greenfield did of course meet the wind requirements but I remember talking about it in the severe threat discussion for it. I just don’t recall seeing a house that was “had it been hit head on, it would’ve gotten an EF5 rating.”
IDK which ones specifically, but NWS Des Moines said in a presentation that the violent core of the Greenfield tornado seemed to slink its way juuuuust past the most well-built structures in town, while directly hitting and obliterating the more frail ones. I don’t recall which structures they mentioned though.
 
I am also in support of this idea too. However, I do feel like there are some EF4s that did receive an appropriate 190 MPH rating. The most perfect example I can think of is Washington, IL 2013.
Washington, Rolling Fork, and Greenfield are valid high-end EF4s to me. They never exited the contingencies of the scale or had a strange roundabout reason to not rate something EF5. The reasoning behind the floral shop not getting the rating was fine. Greenfield, despite containing 300 mph winds, did not inflict EF5 damage at any point. That is a fact. The damage scar, while impressive, did not contain damage more intense than a lot of other higher end EF4s I can think of in the past. I also think the scar is more exaggerated because of the small size of the vortex, it leads to a much sharper damage gradient. Washington was maybe a bit hazier but I never heard of any egregious examples of a lowball for that tornado.

I’m glad people are talking about Rochelle as a top EF5 candidate. I said this a bit earlier in the pages, but Rochelle had over 15 200 mph damage indicators with some spaced pretty far apart from one another. I think that’s a perfectly valid reason to rate it EF5 by itself, and of course the concrete walkway damage with the shrubbery debarking coinciding with it was truly an example of incredible phenomena occurring.
 
New Wren was rated EF3
Which makes its rating even more egregious than if it was actually rated EF4.

Speaking of EF4/5 candidates that are rated EF3, the 2011 Berlin, ND tornado deserves a mention. Just look at this damage...
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Yeah exactly. That one was the very definition of “high-end EF4” imo. 190 MPH does feel right, but they’d be forced to bump it to around 185 MPH to keep it within the EF4 range. Maybe call it 188 MPH or something? Idk.

Flat Rock, AL, Dunlap, TN, Apison, TN, and Rolling Fork, MS would also likely deserve the same treatment imo.
I feel like Rolling Fork could stay the same, mainly if we went with contextual evidence especially around the Indian Bayou subdivision area and the Northeast side of town. But I know that’s not how it works unfortunately. I do believe that the damage in Rolling Fork does get overlooked sometimes though. There was some seriously impressive tree debarking, granulation, and vehicle damage.
 
Which makes its rating even more egregious than if it was actually rated EF4.

Speaking of EF4/5 candidates that are rated EF3, the 2011 Berlin, ND tornado deserves a mention. Just look at this damage...
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img_20210121_132439-jpg.5718

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Photo #3. Is that a torn up concrete outbuilding foundation? Yeeeeesh…

I actually remember tracking this one on radar. It was a huge isolated HP supercell.
 
Which makes its rating even more egregious than if it was actually rated EF4.

Speaking of EF4/5 candidates that are rated EF3, the 2011 Berlin, ND tornado deserves a mention. Just look at this damage...
9f3d1b870a53239ea70c584d23ba4590432e8fe4.JPG

img_20210121_132439-jpg.5718

img_20210121_133028-jpg.5722

img_20210121_134524-jpg.5723

1680066958523-jpg.19302

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I’m embarrassed to say I have never heard of this tornado before.
 
Photo #3. Is that a torn up concrete outbuilding foundation? Yeeeeesh…

I actually remember tracking this one on radar. It was a huge isolated HP supercell.
It's the foundation of a grain silo that was cracked and partially scoured away. From what I hear the silo was most likely empty when the tornado hit, but still an extremely impressive feat nonetheless.
 
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