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Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

Thought you all would find this interesting. It’s a discussion between Alan Gerard (former MIC of NWS JAN) and Tony Lyza (author of recent EF5 drought paper).


I want to say Gerard was the surveyor that gave the Philadelphia MS tornado its EF5 rating.
Fantastic find! This is pretty much a must watch for anyone on this site.
 
Thought you all would find this interesting. It’s a discussion between Alan Gerard (former MIC of NWS JAN) and Tony Lyza (author of recent EF5 drought paper).


I want to say Gerard was the surveyor that gave the Philadelphia MS tornado its EF5 rating.
well...

the whole rating a tornado and using the climate map made by it ...

for nuclear reactors .... is a nightmare thing to hear....

i also like how the calculations on if the drought is natural is down to 0.08 %

and that the EF scale was made to be a match with the old scale ... and then they messed it up (the average build swept clean home was going to be the starting point) and they failed
 
Thought you all would find this interesting. It’s a discussion between Alan Gerard (former MIC of NWS JAN) and Tony Lyza (author of recent EF5 drought paper).


I want to say Gerard was the surveyor that gave the Philadelphia MS tornado its EF5 rating.
Just listened to this, couple thoughts. Maybe lowering the EF5 threshold to 200 or 190 would fix part of the problem, but that only solves one of the two heads of this monster. The other problem of the assigned wind speeds being 50-100 mph low is still present, and probably gets exacerbated by this change.
 
Just listened to this, couple thoughts. Maybe lowering the EF5 threshold to 200 or 190 would fix part of the problem, but that only solves one of the two heads of this monster. The other problem of the assigned wind speeds being 50-100 mph low is still present, and probably gets exacerbated by this change.

In my opinion there's three problems that are intermixed in various measures in dicussions around the EF scale:

1: The theoretical threshold of what should constitute a '5', was changed for no apparent reason other than personal feelings, meaning all else being equal it's harder to get EF-5. I think people sometimes don't grasp this one very well. But even when they do it quite reasonably frustrates them, because there's no good basis for it. At all. And it leads to absurd situations - as Lyza's paper points out, possibly none of the EF-5 rated tornadoes are ratable as such on their structure damage alone.

2: The windspeed estimates for a given level of damage may be too low. To me this is a bit seperate from 1 and 3, in that it's about much more about the fundamentals of damage for a given windspeed. Whereas most arguments arise from damage allegedly being different in intensity to its appearance on its face. This point also has the minefield of the fact structure failure probably occurs across a range of windspeeds, rather than in one discrete 5 mph increment.

3: Bias in how the ratings are done, with a tendency towards nitpicking any given damage indicator towards a lower windspeed due to alleged issues in construction or other excuses, whilst ignoring features that may indicate a higher windspeed. I note that the original EF-scale paper is rather scant in its definitions of what 'well constructed' means, and while NWS personnel will have their own training material that presumably provides more, it's not much good to anyone who can't access it. Furthermore there's clearly plenty of room for personal interpretaton as seen by inconsistencies between offices.

I'd say the last reason is the major cause for contention. We sometimes have tornadoes that would have been rated as violent without a second thought before now being EF-3. Even if it's 'correct' (disputable) it's not consistent with prior ratings. If people see a structure rated 'all walls down' when it's been entirely swept away, or see WFOs rate something outside the prescribed windspeed ranges, it's no surprise they object. The last tornado to receive the 200 MPH 'expected' windspeed was Rochelle - a decade ago. Despite many instances of houses being swept away since then, apparently none was well constructed enough to get the expected value.

While you can make the argument that eveyone's home are poorly built, that rather ignores the original intent of the scale (to make an indicative estimate by using a common structure). I'm more sympathetic to the opposite argument. The engineering centred community that has collectively lead to this situation has an unrealistic idea of what 'well constructed' should mean. I'm not saying we need to go all the way back to the anchor bolted = F5 approach, but when the point's reached that the 'expected value' is highly unexpected it's time to start asking whether it's useful.
 
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Just listened to this, couple thoughts. Maybe lowering the EF5 threshold to 200 or 190 would fix part of the problem, but that only solves one of the two heads of this monster. The other problem of the assigned wind speeds being 50-100 mph low is still present, and probably gets exacerbated by this change.
Lyza actually talks about solution (lowering the threshold) in his paper.

One thing I noticed was Gerard making sure he said EF5 drought with air quotes. It just reinforces that there are some in the meteorological community that know this drought is completely artificial and an aberration.
 
Engineering is simply applied physics, while pure physicists work with hypothetical things and whatnot.

I appreciate you clarifying the differences between engineers and physicists. I actually didn't know they were such similar fields. It's not necessary to degrade one field to promote another.

Maybe this little snippet I bolded is the better point. Physicists are more qualified for tornado research because of their focus on hypotheticals and theory. That's pretty much the entirety of tornado science currently. It doesn't really work to study tornadoes with strictly applied physics, because almost everything we know about tornadoes is theoretical.

The last tornado to receive the 200 MPH 'expected' windspeed was Rochelle - a decade ago. Despite many instances of houses being swept away since then, apparently none was well constructed enough to get the expected value.

While you can make the argument that eveyone's home are poorly built, that rather ignores the original intent of the scale (to make an indicative estimate by using a common structure). I'm more sympathetic to the opposite argument. The engineering centred community that has collectively lead to this situation has an unrealistic idea of what 'well constructed' should mean. I'm not saying we need to go all the way back to the anchor bolted = F5 approach, but when the point's reached that the 'expected value' is highly unexpected it's time to start asking whether it's useful.

Man, I always forget this part. It's so nuts how many anchored, well built homes have been obliterated, yet none receive the expected wind speed. It's been ten whole years since a single home has met their standards. Unreal. Your last paragraph is really spot on too.

and that the EF scale was made to be a match with the old scale ...
This is a really great point too! The whole reason the EF5 threshold is at 200 mph is because slabbed houses were still supposed to be the be EF5 indicator. People just thought the windspeeds required to do that were 200 mph instead of 260. I'm just now realizing it's actually a no brainer that the scale is being used wrong. Kinda blatantly so, too.

Lyza actually talks about solution (lowering the threshold) in his paper.

The link you shared says Lyza is with the National Severe Storms Laboratory. Which was just shut down.... A really amazing scientists just lost his job and funding. damn...
 
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In my opinion there's three problems that are intermixed in various measures in dicussions around the EF scale:

1: The theoretical threshold of what should constitute a '5', was changed for no apparent reason other than personal feelings, meaning all else being equal it's harder to get EF-5. I think people sometimes don't grasp this one very well. But even when they do it quite reasonably frustrates them, because there's no good basis for it. At all. And it leads to absurd situations - as Lyza's paper points out, possibly none of the EF-5 rated tornadoes are ratable as such on their structure damage alone.

2: The windspeed estimates for a given level of damage may be too low. To me this is a bit seperate from 1 and 3, in that it's about much more about the fundamentals of damage for a given windspeed. Whereas most arguments arise from damage allegedly being different in intensity to its appearance on its face. This point also has the minefield of the fact structure failure probably occurs across a range of windspeeds, rather than in one discrete 5 mph increment.

3: Bias in how the ratings are done, with a tendency towards nitpicking any given damage indicator towards a lower windspeed due to alleged issues in construction or other excuses, whilst ignoring features that may indicate a higher windspeed. I note that the original EF-scale paper is rather scant in its definitions of what 'well constructed' means, and while NWS personnel will have their own training material that presumably provides more, it's not much good to anyone who can't access it. Furthermore there's clearly plenty of room for personal interpretaton as seen by inconsistencies between offices.

I'd say the last reason is the major cause for contention. We sometimes have tornadoes that would have been rated as violent without a second thought before now being EF-3. Even if it's 'correct' (disputable) it's not consistent with prior ratings. If people see a structure rated 'all walls down' when it's been entirely swept away, or see WFOs rate something outside the prescribed windspeed ranges, it's no surprise they object. The last tornado to receive the 200 MPH 'expected' windspeed was Rochelle - a decade ago. Despite many instances of houses being swept away since then, apparently none was well constructed enough to get the expected value.

While you can make the argument that eveyone's home are poorly built, that rather ignores the original intent of the scale (to make an indicative estimate by using a common structure). I'm more sympathetic to the opposite argument. The engineering centred community that has collectively lead to this situation has an unrealistic idea of what 'well constructed' should mean. I'm not saying we need to go all the way back to the anchor bolted = F5 approach, but when the point's reached that the 'expected value' is highly unexpected it's time to start asking whether it's useful.
1. It was changed on kind of a whim, and kind of on accident(?) If you didn't watch the video he mentions how originally 200 was going to be the start of ef5, so the EXP fr12 dod10 would be sufficient to hit ef5, but then they rounded the upper bound of every category to the nearest five, which pushed the threshold to 201, meaning you now need a house built above code to get the 5. Hard to say definitely if that was on purpose or not, but does elict a long "hmmmmmm" from me.

2. I agree this a completely different problem, but I still think they're completely screwed up. We saw greenfield record windspeeds of 300 mph+ while still not really dealing obvious ef5 damage. I couldn't tell you how they came to the current windspeeds, but it's painfully accurate to me that they're off by dozens of mph.

3. It's so bad that we've come to a point where it feels like the surveyors start at LB and see if they can work their way up. I bet if you plotted all the DOD 10s and their assigned speeds on a graph, it would be so insanely skewed to the left. And I totally didn't think about the contextuals, but you're right, they do seem to only use them negatively. A good example I can think they should do was Marion. The house was CMU, and probably could have gone even further down towards the LB, but because of the tree damage behind the house they went with 190. Also regarding the training for surveyors I did find this page which might be a little helpful: https://training.weather.gov/wdtd/courses/EF-scale/
 
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