Enhanced Fujita Ratings Debate Thread

[TH2002]

Dammit NWS Paducah and Louisville look at what you've done!!!!

In all seriousness, not trying to play moderator here but when name-calling begins I think that's when things are going a little out of control.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

My god. You are completely missing the point. Do some EF5s have 300 MPH winds? Absolutely.

That’s isn’t the point. The point is, even if you’re right, it’s still just guess work, and adding bs “science-y” terms like “calculations” does not change the fact that the table above is nothing but guesswork made by somebody with no actual data besides damage photos and their own opinion. Putting pseudo-science in a table format does not suddenly make it valid.

Stuff like this hurts credibility. Keep it off this thread.

What are your estimations?

 

[buckeye05]

Can you use photos to ascertain the general EF rating (high-end EF4 or mid-range EF3 and so on)? Yes. But anything beyond that is pure fantasy. You can’t just look at a photo and say “Yup, that’s 294 MPH exactly”, which is exactly whoever that table is doing.

 

[buckeye05]

What are your estimations?

Ok so earlier on was “calculations” and now it’s estimations? Proving my point for me here.

I don’t have any estimations besides the general EF scale ranking, because I don’t have the credentials or know how when it comes to assigning specific wind speeds. Hate to break it to you, but neither do you, or whoever made that laughable table.

 

[andyhb]

Can we keep this to EF-scale debate rather than the tinfoil hat brigade? That'd be nice...

 

[buckeye05]

Yeah sorry, but I can’t bite my tongue on this one. I’m gonna call out any baseless weenie drivel when it comes to this topic.

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Is there any actual evidence of the slabbed buildings from the Mayfield tornado being bolted to their foundation excluding the CMU foundations?

 

[buckeye05]

Is there any actual evidence of the slabbed buildings from the Mayfield tornado being bolted to their foundation excluding the CMU foundations?

The ones in Cambridge shores had anchor bolts and poured concrete walk-out basement stemwalls. Similar foundation type to the golf course houses at the east edge of Parkersburg.

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

This one? While this is obviously EF4 damage, I'm not sure if the debris was blown far enough for an EF5 rating to be considered and the debris is still in relatively large pieces.

 

[buckeye05]

This one? While this is obviously EF4 damage, I'm not sure if the debris was blown far enough for an EF5 rating to be considered and the debris is still in relatively large pieces.

Not just that one. Judging by aerial video of this area, there were about 6 to 8 houses of the same construction swept away, including some that had more debris blown away than the one shown above. I think the aerial video is on LiveStormsMedia on YouTube.

 

[TH2002]

Not just that one. Judging by aerial video of this area, there were about 6 to 8 houses of the same construction swept away, including some that had more debris blown away than the one shown above. I think the aerial video is on LiveStormsMedia on YouTube.

These ones? (there is one in particular next to the one with red subflooring)

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

Not just that one. Judging by aerial video of this area, there were about 6 to 8 houses of the same construction swept away, including some that had more debris blown away than the one shown above. I think the aerial video is on LiveStormsMedia on YouTube.

Are there any ground views or closer views of these houses?

 

[buckeye05]

There also may have been a few EF5-candidate slab foundation homes in Cayce, but I can’t say for sure with out close-ups. It can be very difficult to discern slabs from subfloors when looking at aerial video.

One has to admit, while the EF4 rating is not appropriate given other evidence, a vast majority of the homes swept away by this tornado were built on CMU foundations, making it not as clear-cut as Smithville or Moore. Obviously those are pretty extreme examples, but I’m just speaking in terms of construction methods. If it were up to me, I’d at least have gone with context-based EF5, like Rainsville for example. I just don’t think that’s considered a viable option anymore, unfortunately.

 

[buckeye05]

These ones? (there is one in particular next to the one with red subflooring)
View attachment 11149

Yup that’s one of the ones I’m talking about. There were others that aren’t as clear or are out of frame in the above photo.

Are there any ground views or closer views of these houses?

I do believe there’s some ground level video of this area on the LiveStormsMedia page as well. Other EF5 candidate homes appear to be scattered throughout the Gilbertsville and Land Between the Lakes areas, which are both in the same immediate vicinity of Cambridge Shores.

 

[TH2002]

There also may have been a few EF5-candidate slab foundation homes in Cayce, but I can’t say for sure with out close-ups. It can be very difficult to discern slabs from subfloors when looking at aerial video.

One has to admit, while the EF4 rating is not appropriate given other evidence, a vast majority of the homes swept away by this tornado were built on CMU foundations, making it not as clear-cut as Smithville or Moore. Obviously those are pretty extreme examples, but I’m just speaking in terms of construction methods. If it were up to me, I’d at least have gone with context-based EF5, like Rainsville for example. I just don’t think that’s considered a viable option anymore, unfortunately.

There was also one in a rural area NE of Dawson Springs very near the "EF3" homes along Carbondale Rd, albeit without confirmation of its construction or whether it was swept away by the tornado or clean up crews.

 

[MNTornadoGuy]

There was also one in a rural area NE of Dawson Springs very near the "EF3" homes along Carbondale Rd, albeit without confirmation of its construction or whether it was swept away by the tornado or clean up crews.

Something I noticed while looking closer at the slab is that it appears to be blackened. Maybe the debris was burned on top of it?

 

[TH2002]

Something I noticed while looking closer at the slab is that it appears to be blackened. Maybe the debris was burned on top of it?

I highly doubt anything would have been burned on the slab itself but the presence of a neat pile of debris right next to the foundation could be an indicator.

 

[buckeye05]

After looking at an aerial photo the Dawson Springs house you guys are referring to, I do notice what appears to be a basement staircase entryway in the center of the foundation. I know the slab looks grayish in the photo (suggesting concrete), but I’m not totally convinced it isn’t a subfloor due to what appears to be a basement entry. Compare to the Washington, IL aerials and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[TH2002]

After looking at an aerial photo the Dawson Springs house you guys are referring to, I do notice what appears to be a basement staircase entryway in the center of the foundation. I know the slab looks grayish in the photo (suggesting concrete), but I’m not totally convinced it isn’t a subfloor due to what appears to be a basement entry. Compare to the Washington, IL aerials and you’ll see what I mean.

I did pick up on that but my main concern is figuring out whether it was even swept away by the tornado, then worrying about whether it was swept from its subflooring.

 

[buckeye05]

I did pick up on that but my main concern is figuring out whether it was even swept away by the tornado, then worrying about whether it was swept from its subflooring.

I mean construction is just as important as the debris pattern, if not more so. If that’s a subfloor, then we can automatically deduce that the walls separated from where they were nailed into the floor, rather than the entire house being ripped from the bolts along its basement foundation. That’s an important distinction that can mean a world of difference when it comes to EF rankings.