MNTornadoGuy
Member
You can see the “ghost train” at around 1:48.
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Severe WX December 10 & 11, 2021 Severe Threat
- Thread starter Richardjacks
- Start date
You can see the “ghost train” at around 1:48.
Yup. That's a pretty remarkable capture. The lightning backlit it just at the right time as it was crossing the lake.
I don't know whether It was discussed before here but the 190Mph rating house owner in Bremen shared the information why NWS not gave EF5 rating to his house. Mostly because trees behind his house still standing. They also said the owner built a awesomely strong house.
MNTornadoGuy
Member
CheeselandSkies
Member
So apparently if damage was done by a narrow subvortex it doesn't count?
MNTornadoGuy
Member
Yes it is
The expectation for trees to simply be missing after a tornado for it to be EF5 qualifying damage is ridiculous. That’s not something that happens frequently, and should not be expected to happen every time winds exceed 200 MPH. In fact, studies published by the AMS have shown that large trees that experience EF5 winds typically don’t snap or uproot, but tend to just lose all their limbs and bark. This was largely determined by a study which compared structural damage to tree damage within the immediate vicinity after Moore 2013.
So yeah, the above statement’s assertion that there were some context issues in Bremen is laughable, as I’d say that is where arguably the most intense contextual damage was along the entire path.
I truly think a lot of this could be fixed if NWS survey teams sat down and basically had a review of past EF5s, why they were rated as such, the construction quality of the EF5 rated structures, and what kind of contextual damage occurred. It’s been so long since an EF5 rating has been handed out, I think many have forgotten what it looks like, and pushed the standard the top 1% of events in terms of violence (Jarrell, Bridge Creek, Smithville, ect).
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This house in Smithville would probably receive an EF4 rating today because of "muh trees left standing".
MNTornadoGuy
Member
Damage at/around the EF4 190 house in Bremen.
View of the foundation while the house was under construction.
Damage at/around the EF4 190 house in Bremen.
View attachment 11460
View of the foundation while the house was under construction.
The first aerial pic give me the idea that those maple trees likely in one subvortex, which may explain why damage to these trees seems not that impressive. The core of tornado here was very small.
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Shakespeare 2016
Member
I didn't think the subvortex or core was all that wide in that area.
It was based on the treefall pattern analysis of the forest leftside of the tornado. And subvortex can be much wider than this in DOW's detecting.
Shakespeare 2016
Member
It is kind of like how the Greensburg EF5 tornado damage was extremely narrow but left a mile-wide swath of EF3 and EF4 damage.
Tornado came from the bottom left side of the picture, moving towards the bottom right side. The treefall pattern of the bottom center forest was not particularly indicatIve of the Incredible intensity with vehicles and trees on the left side of the core was not in particular bad shape. One wood pole in front of maple trees left side of the tornado was not bent just tilted.
But the damage to the 190mph house was very violent and you can see a black car tossed into the trench bottom right side of the picture. Scouring can be found north side of the house but little surround maple trees.
Tornado quickly became very large thereafter. It was likely a up-bottom intensifying mode here after checking radar. Tornado likely still intensifying rather than peaking here.
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MNTornadoGuy
Member
Extreme western Bremen. A classic and well-defined convergent treefall pattern is present. Cars were thrown significant distances, trees were debarked, a mobile home was obliterated, and outbuildings were completely swept away.
andyhb
Member
So the owner of that house himself seems rather perplexed (and annoyed) by the reasoning of the surveyors, but apparently no one cares about whether it was a 4 or 5. Right...
andyhb
Member
Where are these pictures coming from? Do you have a link?
